No More Learning

SLOTERDIJK: We must call on the strong with their strength, that’s right. But it shouldn’t be done any longer by using the method of confiscatory taxation. We finally have to restructure the whole sphere of public finance to become a matter of honour. In psycho- political terms this is a very ambitious manoeuvre, something that can easily take a hundred years. But we have to be clear about the historical dimensions of the problem. We believed that the problem of nobility was resolved from the time a large number of aristocrats had their heads chopped off in the French Revolution. But it is not resolved. The result of the French Revolution shouldn’t be that the
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national population gets the right to behave like the mob. On the contrary, the common people should be raised to the rank of the aristocracy. I think we haven’t fully realized the superior kind of psycho-political tendencies of the French Revolution – whereas the liberation of the mob has been largely successful.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Do we have the aristocratic idea innately as human beings?
SLOTERDIJK: The only people who have shown that public spirit can support the state in a casual way are the Swiss. To para- phrase O. W. Fischer in the film Helden:3 ‘No aristocratic title is more beautiful than the simple Swiss address, “Herr”. ’
STEINGART/RIECKE: Haven’t the modern Greeks taught us that the rich don’t pay voluntarily? In a way, Greece is living out the model of an abstinent country that demands taxes but doesn’t collect them.
SLOTERDIJK: The idea of the state hasn’t caught on at all in Greece. I get annoyed whenever people say Greece is the cradle of democracy. The real Greece is a psycho-political ruin in which 400 years of Turkish occupation left a residue of resignation, priva- tism, wisecrack attitudes and remoteness from the state. It reminds me of what Joseph de Maistre said about the Turks in Greece. (Incidentally, they had enough time to become Europeans while they remained on European soil for 400 years. But what happened? The Greeks became orientalized; they failed to Westernize the Turks – if they ever tried to. In those times, however, they didn’t know about the fairy story of the cradle of democracy. ) Remember De Maistre’s verdict on the Turks of that time: they remained Tartars camping on European soil.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Where is the cradle of democracy? In Paris?
SLOTERDIJK: More likely in Rome. Initially it wasn’t a ques- tion of democracy as a form of popular rule, it was more about the res publica, which is about having an open space in which people feel that the noblest thing anyone can do is to participate in shaping the body politic. And that was more to do with Roman philosophy of the state than the Greek heritage.
STEINGART/RIECKE: But how do we achieve the psycho- political change you are discussing and demanding, in which citizens give voluntarily, without the state collapsing?
3 Helden was the German version of the film Arms and the Man, starring O. W. Fischer (1958). The film was adapted from the play of the same name by George Bernard Shaw.
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SLOTERDIJK: There are two main possibilities: first, that human beings are asocial creatures by nature – as representatives of black anthropology from Thomas Hobbes to Adorno have told us – and only fear can force them into coexistence. Think of Schopenhauer: bourgeois society resembles a group of freezing porcupines that huddle together for warmth and can only hurt each other. These images are enough to substantiate the pessimism of black anthro- pology. But there is another track. If we consult the works of the ‘moral sense’ philosophers that gave rise to political economy, the works of the Scots, of Adam Smith and of Lord Shaftesbury, one of the most wonderful figures in European intellectual history, we get a completely different picture. Shaftesbury taught and practised an enthusiastic attitude to sociability.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Wilhelm Röpke, the author of Jenseits von Angebot und Nachfrage,4 also had a view of humankind that regarded capitalists as more than just monsters and the state as more than merely an auxiliary machine.
SLOTERDIJK: Convivial philosophers assume that human beings are creatures that feel well in company. Human beings like seeing their reflection in the eyes of others and are full of empathetic virtues. The main thesis here is that concern is first nature to us and bourgeois coldness is only acquired with additional educa- tion through whole epochs of negative dressage. Philosophers then plump up the results into dark anthropological theories.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Because we have redacted empathy away.
SLOTERDIJK: Still, empathy is the basic given factor. Everything else is more of an acquired vice. I want briefly to point out one thing: people in a fiscal democracy in which there are still elements left over from absolutism are accustomed to being called on as donors anyway. They wouldn’t suffer any more than they do now if we introduced a new official term for channelling public emo- tions, stating that from today, everything we pay into the communal coffers is not called ‘taxes’ but ‘donations’ from citizens. That they are now called donations doesn’t alter their obligatory character. That was, by the way, the starting point taken for the almost totally ignorant debates on my theses that shocked the German cultural press two years ago. Many of the people who voiced their opin- ions had not read Marcel Mauss; it was he who pointed out that
4 Wilhelm Röpke, A Humane Economy: The Social Framework of the Free Market (Chicago: Henry Regner), 1960.
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donations involve a curious unity of duty and voluntariness. 5 His theory about the dual nature of donations contains everything one needs to know to see the plausibility of switching from confiscation to donation as the way to fill the communal coffers. Incidentally, Mauss was a socialist and he knew what he was talking about. The spontaneity of donations doesn’t eliminate their obligatory character – that doesn’t occur to a convinced étatist and fiscalist. An alternative interpretation of social relations can only emerge from the idea that the whole society functions in donor streams and will no longer be animated by the tax burden.
STEINGART/RIECKE: So far your ideas haven’t found many supporters. Taking seems more blessed to us than giving.
SLOTERDIJK: The German Social Democrats have just dis- cussed increasing taxation again at their party conference. What they didn’t want to understand is that in recent years in America the initiative called ‘The Giving Pledge’ has begun turning billion- aires into social democrats. Social democracy lives from the simple formula: ‘half for the communal budget’. Warren Buffet’s words rang in my ears because he and his fellow campaigners seem to be aware of precisely that figure. Apparently, the 50 per cent logic has found its place in the minds of American billionaires. Meanwhile, here in Germany all those flatfooted psychologists are lumbering around and still using the language of threats when tax increases are up for discussion.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Is Warren Buffett your hero rather than Sigmar Gabriel? 6
SLOTERDIJK: I think Sigmar Gabriel is able to learn. My opinion is based on personal observation and a wise proverb from the Middle Ages: if God considers somebody for office, he equips him beforehand with the intellect appropriate to that office.
STEINGART/RIECKE: What does that poetic statement mean?
SLOTERDIJK: That office and intellect converge. Which is really not stupid, by the way. Most people laugh about it, but I think the contemporary word ‘competence’ expresses precisely this faith in the relation between office and intellect.
STEINGART/RIECKE: The SPD decided to increase taxation again. They only argued about how much they should take.
5 Marcel Mauss (1872–1950) was a French sociologist, ethnologist and anthropologist. Sloterdijk is referring here to his theory of ‘give and take’. 6 Sigmar Gabriel, a leading German Social Democratic politician, held the post of Vice Chancellor and Minister for Economic Affairs and Energy in the centre-left coalition government that took office in Germany in 2013.
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SLOTERDIJK: They are sticking to the old pattern of compul- sory state-organized taking.
STEINGART/RIECKE: What actually distinguishes your dona- tion from compulsory taxation? You cite Benjamin Franklin, who said that only two things are certain in life: death, and paying taxes. Isn’t it a habit that has become second nature to us?
SLOTERDIJK: Absolutely. We shouldn’t underestimate the depth of habit. When Franklin said only death and taxes are certain, he put those two phenomena into the same category of resignation. That means, in relation to these two things, we have become psycho- logically almost incapable of learning. Anybody who interferes with taxes should abandon hope, as in Dante’s Hell. Mortality and the duty to pay taxes are handled in the same area of the brain. They are surrounded by the same feeling of inescapable fatalism.
STEINGART/RIECKE: But your flatfooted theologians object that they really need binding agreements because, after all, the welfare state has binding expenditure commitments.
SLOTERDIJK: Everything is binding in the alternative system as well. But the quality of the transaction as such will be experi- enced differently. People will finally be acknowledged in terms of their donor qualities – it would be an almost invisible but incredibly far-reaching psychological revolution if the people who really fill the communal coffers would be taken seriously as such for the first time. It is quite wrong that at the moment when I devote myself most to the system in general, the moment when I pay my taxes, I see myself pushed into the most passive and undignified role by the fiscal authorities.
STEINGART/RIECKE: In our system the donor is actually the debtor.
SLOTERDIJK: That is a psycho-political mistake that could explain modern democracy’s failure. The étatists of all kinds don’t take it seriously enough. They think the systems run forever on their own. Our whole world is founded on a fundamental psycho-political error because it doesn’t sufficiently value the voluntary dimension in all the transactions between the state and its citizens.
STEINGART/RIECKE: But hasn’t the liberalism of the Free Democratic Party fallen for the same friend–enemy pattern by inventing the hand that gives back in reciprocation for the hand that takes – that is, by reducing taxation? Isn’t it the same stupid policy, only with different symptoms?
SLOTERDIJK: I don’t know what those people really think. The motivations behind this kind of rhetoric are certainly related to pleasing their clientele. But the liberals, like everybody else, don’t use the right tone to address their clientele’s positive community
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consciousness. They behave as if they were merely a party trying to avoid taxation. We shouldn’t forget, however, that the avoidance reflex stems from a false psycho-political development that goes back a very long way. Now it is becoming disastrous because it coin- cides with decades of the state pursuing terribly wrong fiscal policy.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Is that the origin of the present crisis?
SLOTERDIJK: The analysis of the origins should come before the crisis report: we have a huge crisis of trust that is also the cred- ibility crisis of credit. It is gradually becoming impossible to take countries seriously as borrowers. The cannon is no longer the ultima ratio of states; instead, it is bankruptcy.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Yet the state has two things not granted to us private citizens: it can wage war, that is its first right, and it can print money. It is doing the latter now, to avoid bankruptcy, to be able to carry on. While we are sitting here, money that has not been earned is being put into circulation in Frankfurt, and the same goes for America. What do you think of that?
SLOTERDIJK: Twentieth-century economists hailed printing money as the lesser evil if it helped prevent recessions. As soon as recession was defined as the worst possible evil, inflation policy obviously became the lesser evil. This brings us back to social democracy. In the world-historical competition with Leninism it always presented itself as the party of the lesser evil.
STEINGART/RIECKE: But nowadays all social democrats and all conservatives are involved in the business of flooding the markets with money. Whatever our political differences, the advocates of monetary flooding make up the really grand coalition.
SLOTERDIJK: Maybe some financial genius will come along soon and show us that the United States’ national debt can tend towards infinity without anything happening. It would be a new mathematics that the brain of old Homo sapiens isn’t ready for.
STEINGART/RIECKE: But do you agree with the analysis that a recession would be the worst case?
SLOTERDIJK: I have another worst case in mind, that of com- plete general demoralization. That’s what we’re heading for.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Demoralization of society as a whole?
SLOTERDIJK: Collective demoralization is worse than a tem- porary recession can ever be. Recessions have the saving grace that they accustom people to exercising moderation again. I don’t mean being moderate as in tightening one’s belt, but practising modera- tion in terms of not losing one’s sense of proportion. We have lived for decades in a spooky atmosphere with ambiguous messages constantly raining down on people and making them crazy. They are being told simultaneously to save money and waste it; they are
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supposed to take risks and do solid business, and they are supposed to speculate sky-high and keep both feet on the ground. In the end this completely wears people down. The same demoralizing effect likewise comes from the rapid growth of incomes without perfor- mance. This poisons young people because they start dreaming about pursuing pseudo careers. The whole thing has an ugly psycho- logical name: the dream of excessive reward. Many people get up in the morning and want the highest premium right at the start. The inner millionaire has been awakened in everybody. However, he or she is simply not yet the same as the real, existing person.
STEINGART/RIECKE: But isn’t the same attitude there at both ends – at one end the bank employees, who rely on their bonus and have the feeling they are owed something; and at the other end those who believe they are owed part of the national income without doing any kind of work for it?
SLOTERDIJK: The welfare system is indispensable, but it also spreads disinformation that leads to false attitudes. The Americans took a more courageous route in the Clinton era. They took the vague idea that society owes us support when we’re in need and reworked it into the precise idea of welfare state credits with a time limit, which every citizen has a right to.
STEINGART/RIECKE: The programme was called ‘Welfare to Work’ . . .
SLOTERDIJK: And it meant that every citizen going through a bad patch could rely on support. The side effect of this was a sharp reduction in the intentional propagation of poverty within the welfare system. Before then, after giving birth to her fourth child a woman could get a secure position in the welfare system, rather like a public servant.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Ronald Reagan actually spoke of the ‘welfare queen’ who strutted through the ghettos because she boasted an astonishingly high income.
SLOTERDIJK: This phenomenon is also related to the false psycho-political construction of our fiscal affairs. When money first enters the fiscal system it is just a factor to be used, without charac- teristics. It doesn’t show the imprint of the donor group any longer. The recipient shouldn’t be able to trace the donors’ input at all. We used to call it ‘state dough’, neutralized money. This confuses the recipients because they can’t feel the warm current reaching them in a material sense from the donor side. On the contrary, there is often a kind of recipient anger because the clients are annoyed, thinking it could easily be more. We don’t know much about the real processes in the transfer.
STEINGART/RIECKE: That brings us back to the politicians
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again. You talked about the need to create an employers’ movement symbolically modelled on the workers’ movement. What can that achieve?
SLOTERDIJK: An employers’ movement is very meaningful if you use a metaphorical concept of the employer. Nowadays I would express it differently. We are looking at a new start in which each taxpayer is seen as a future sponsor. Only then will the com- munity be on the right psycho-political track. Everybody who fills the national coffers has the right to the title of sponsor. Sponsoring, in any case, demonstrates an interesting analogy to the relationship between taxpayers and the tax state because it is based on the idea of service in return. This should also apply to the situation between the fiscal system and citizens in a democracy. At the time I first proposed this idea, it was interpreted as an argument in support of universal patronizing arrogance. It’s actually about something very different, namely, that we should develop a universal sponsoring consciousness by which everybody who contributes to the com- munal economy should be recognized as a donor. In immensely big societies like ours, the currency of recognition is the psycho-political fluid that remains the only halfway reliable medium for democratic coherence.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Can you describe this in detail?
SLOTERDIJK: We can look back today on 3,000 years of high culture in which the coherence of the many was almost always created by phobocratic means: with the rule of fear, even in the churches. The great structures were integrated by fear of the Lord and consolidated with mechanisms of paranoid integration based on the idea of common enemies. We seem to have largely overcome all that. In present-day societies, which are primarily communities for shared concerns and entertainment, social coherence can’t be achieved with purely phobocratic methods. Threats don’t get us very far nowadays. From this perspective the Germans are amiable folk. For the past three or four years, they have been threatened daily with horror stories by climate theorists and tax or finance scaremongers. But what have the Germans done at Christmas time for the past three or four years? They have proved that people can’t be bullied in relation to their feeling about life. They have broken one consumer record after another. This tells us something that has far-reaching significance.
STEINGART/RIECKE: There are evidently social tendencies for immunization against scaremongering.
SLOTERDIJK: Your profession is getting more difficult too, isn’t it?
STEINGART/RIECKE: But we journalists are also working
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in the field of the quest for meaning. After all, newspaper readers aren’t only looking for shock and horror; they are looking for orien- tation as well. In this respect, we are all registering rising circulation and more website visits in this crisis, because people are looking for orientation and Mr Ackermann clearly can’t provide it on his own. 7
SLOTERDIJK: We are heading for a time when people will become aware of the experimental character of politics in general. More and more people are also starting to understand the experi- mental character of economic decisions at the highest level. That is very disturbing because there should be things that aren’t experi- mented with. That’s what the Pope says as well. But he’s more concerned with sex and the family.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Are you thinking about the state and the rules of the game for society?
SLOTERDIJK: Yes. Sometimes I think if Montesquieu came back, he would have to say to himself: I didn’t understand the dis- tribution of powers properly. I only mentioned the judicative, the legislative and the executive, but I didn’t take note of the speculative.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Habermas doesn’t even try to look for the psycho-social level, but says we should remove these things from the jurisdiction of the nation-state.
He says we need new European institutions. He acts as if he were the new constructor of an extra supranational level that is supposed to use new institutions to solve our problems in this area, which is actually more pre-democratic than democratic. He is building a new Europe for himself. What do you think of that?
SLOTERDIJK: Habermas has evidently not thought through some of the assumptions of his theses properly. The fundamental thrust of his ideas is quite plausible and has a certain appeal. But the basic analysis is missing, because what he doesn’t see is that nation-states continue to exist today not only because of their slug- gishness, their traditions and their cultural attributes. They remain alive and have a future because their system of solidarity continues to be organized on a national scale. That means nobody today is a national socialist, but everybody is a social nationalist. Now, and for the foreseeable future, we are living in real social national- ism because the great majority of generational contracts are still concluded in a national format, with the exception of an ongoing but rather marginal tendency towards integrating migrants into
7 Swiss banker Josef Ackermann was chief executive officer of Deutsche Bank, Germany’s biggest banking group, from 2006 to 2012.
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national social budgets. However, we are still light years away from a supranational social state.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Wouldn’t a European transfer union create something like that?
SLOTERDIJK: No. We would achieve that if all Europeans were to receive their pensions from Brussels – that’s the way a united Europe would work. We can’t construct it from the other end, from the parliaments and the commissions. The social nationalist reflex is already there, and we can say, ‘Ubi bene, ibi patria’. I am at home where my retirement pension is guaranteed. The people who give me my homeland are those who calculate my pension. As long as that happens through the auspices of the good old Federal German Employment Agency or my public service pension scheme, I will keep my national ties and remain securely in the social insurance system. We could only think about the things Habermas is talking about if we could give that up. But, as always, he starts building from the top down.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Democracy appears too rarely in what constructivists are propagating now in terms of institutions and fiscal union – all the slogans all along the line from Habermas to Chancellor Merkel. 8 Not only do they fail to include the social insur- ance system, but the idea of democracy is also completely absent.
SLOTERDIJK: The very grand coalition of post-democrats that negotiates destinies in Europe has existed for a long time. Naturally it is a benevolent post-democracy, but of the kind that wants to force citizens to take part in all the procedures as always, only in this undignified form of compulsory fiscal behaviour that goes back to absolutism. In Habermas’s scheme there would be more parliamen- tary business and more elections, but his Europe would basically be the same monster consisting of twenty-seven states operating compulsory taxation that already completely bewilders citizens, only with more symbolic superstructure. If Europeans had more pride it wouldn’t be possible to keep playing this game with them. But as I have already pointed out, people have been trained for centuries in the deprivation of their dignity – the training of death and taxation – and that can’t be shaken off quickly. If a free spirit like Benjamin Franklin mentioned both things in one breath, then it is easy to understand why a social democrat today can only speak
8 Angela Merkel, a leading Conservative German politician and chair- person of the German Christian Democratic Party, served as Federal Chancellor of Germany from 2005.
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fatalistically about the topic of taxes, with an added twist: we’ll give fatalism a helping hand by increasing the highest tax rate.
STEINGART/RIECKE: So far we have talked a great deal about the state and its institutions. Could you please say something about capitalism and the money business: where do you think changes, changed thinking patterns and changed processes have to be imple- mented? Or is the state the main engine of events as a whole?
SLOTERDIJK: I think the state has made capital errors with its mad central-bank policy in the last twenty years, and now that people can see the results of those errors they want to correct them by repeating them on an even bigger scale. You only have to look fairly carefully at the effect of flooding the markets. The result is that most of that money – up to around 80 or 90 per cent – doesn’t go into the real economy but into financial speculation. We are dealing with purely technical central-bank mistakes, which you can easily understand if you read Walter Bagehot’s book Lombard Street, which is on my desk over there. It is the central bank errors that have opened the floodgates to speculation. That’s why I don’t believe a word of the greed psychology that is so fashionable right now. Of course people have the ‘I want’ reflex, particularly in the form of ‘I want as well’. There is women’s urge to collect, and men’s expectation of booty, and in our hermaphroditic age these two acquisition reflexes constantly get mixed up with each other. But who has left easy money lying around where anybody passing by would have to be an idiot not to take it? In the end it is the central bankers who have made speculation possible.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Show us the way out of this stupid situation.
SLOTERDIJK: The possibility for the real economy to obtain credit has to be decoupled from the shady, speculative world of commercial banks, funds and other institutions. In other words, if the state really wants to function usefully as a lender of last resort, in emergencies it should offer short cuts for genuine credit-seekers in the economy instead of throwing eight-tenths of smart money at speculators at low interest rates. A short cut of that kind between the highest-level bank and the real economy must be tried out, and there are clever institution designers around who understand such things. That would be a simple measure to restrain the financial market branch, which has become too powerful, to its limits within the system.
STEINGART/RIECKE: We began by acquitting the bankers as creditors. When it comes to guilt, are we going further now and saying that the central bankers are guilty?
SLOTERDIJK: Given the premise that the basic mistake has
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already been made, many banks have acted correctly – but, as we know, ‘There is no right life in a false life. ’9 Besides, the banking sector had its black sheep who are guilty above and beyond their role in that wicked game. Countless players have capitalized end- lessly on the structural errors of the finance system and have created a beautiful inflation of assets that was not easily visible to the general consumer public. But ordinary people must have the impression that the rich are getting richer all the time, and the poor poorer. That is only partially true because in hidden inflation the noted assets of the rich get bigger, but the bogus values can hardly be translated into market prices. This is clearly demonstrated by the derelict houses in the USA and Spain that can’t be sold.
STEINGART/RIECKE: What have you learned about our present system from the book on your desk – Bagehot’s classic Lombard Street – which was first published in 1874?
SLOTERDIJK: This book probably marks the first appearance of the idea that is falsely applied everywhere today: I mean the sug- gestion that the world’s central banks rapidly flood with money when recession threatens. Bagehot knew how bad a recession could be. He recommended avoiding shortage crises and suggested resort- ing to risky methods instead. He certainly couldn’t imagine that markets would be flooded for decades, as practised regularly by Greenspan and Co.
STEINGART/RIECKE: But that would mean you see the crisis as the result of the state’s failure. Yet you still have a mild view of Ms Merkel. Why?
SLOTERDIJK: True, I have a rather milder view of her at the moment. She is the premier essayist in the state nowadays. In that capacity, we can’t joke about her at all because she is really toiling away there at the head of the body politic. In any case, she already deserves the Nobel Prize for economics for her opposition to Euro Bonds, although she is surrounded by social populists right across Europe who would gladly have carried on playing their deadly game.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Does she get too little support from economics as an academic discipline?
SLOTERDIJK: Economic science seems to me to be a discipline that has lost its basic principles. The whole faculty is in a dreadful state. One increasingly gets the feeling that the theories as such are fiction that is trying to become reality and can’t be linked to any
9 Sloterdijk is referring to Adorno’s famous dictum, reproduced in Theodor Adorno, Minima Moralia (New York: Verso Books), 1978.
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external standard. This is not a new observation for a theorist of cognition. Niklas Luhmann10 had already stated twenty years ago that good theory is like a panel flight above closed cloud cover. Visual flight is only for amateurs; the clear view down to the ground is always harmful for social scientists because they let their subjec- tivity and sentimentality influence them.
STEINGART/RIECKE: We live in a period of permanent stress tests for our citizens. Right now, we are waiting for some parting words of comfort from the philosopher.
SLOTERDIJK: I have discovered a first-class comforter. STEINGART/RIECKE: A whisky?
SLOTERDIJK: One of the most beautiful proverbs I have come
across in a long time. It comes from Piet Klocke. Do you know him? STEINGART/RIECKE: Yes, of course.
SLOTERDIJK: He’s the fantastic cabaret artist . . . STEINGART/RIECKE: The one who sounds like Mr Rürup? 11 SLOTERDIJK: He has discovered that most sentences don’t
have to be spoken right to the end. He just runs on immediately into the next sentence. Well, I think we can pass on a proverb from Piet Klocke to people in need of comfort. It goes like this: ‘However big the chaos, there’s always a tiny spark of hopelessness in it somewhere. ’
STEINGART/RIECKE: Mr Sloterdijk, thank you for this interview.
10 Niklas Luhmann (1927–98) was an influential German sociologist and social theorist.
11 Bert Rürup is a German economist and former chairman of the German Council of Economic Experts. He was a leading consultant on the reform of the German pension and social welfare system from 2002 to 2009.
30
IS THERE A WAY OUT OF THE CRISIS OF WESTERN CULTURE?
Interview with Peter Sloterdijk and Slavoj Žižek*12
LE MONDE: For the first time in the history of the Western world, the future has run into a crisis. And the new generations don’t think they’ll have better lives than their predecessors. Lack of interest in politics, the economic crisis and retreat into the identity of our origins: how can we describe the moment in time we are pres- ently living through? Can we call it a crisis of culture?
SLOTERDIJK: What do we mean by using the term ‘Western culture’ for the culture we have lived in since the seventeenth century? In my opinion we are talking about a form of world based on the idea that the age of the cult of the past is over. The pre- eminence of the past has been destroyed. Western people invented an unprecedented life form founded on anticipating the future. This means we live in a world that is more and more strongly ‘futurized’. Consequently, I believe that at a deep level the meaning of our ‘being-in-the-world’ embraces futurism, and this is the fundamental feature of the way we exist. The pre-eminence of the future dates back to the epoch at the beginning of the Renaissance in which the West invented the new art of making promises. I mean the time at which credit intruded into the life of Europeans. In antiquity and the Middle Ages credit hardly played a role because it was managed
* This conversation between Peter Sloterdijk and Slavoj Žižek appeared under the title ‘Comment sortir de la crise de la civilisation occidentale? ’, in Le Monde (28 May 2011). Available at: <http://colblog. blog. lemonde. fr/2011/05/28/peter-sloterdijk-slavoj-zizek-comment-sortir-de-la-crise-de-la- civilisation-occidentale/>.
Slavoj Žižek is a philosopher, cultural critic and performer. The interviewer for Le Monde was Nicolas Truong.
Is There a Way Out of the Crisis of Western Culture? 257
by usurers who were condemned by the Church. The usurer directly blocked the future of anybody who had to repay credit. Modern loans, by contrast, loans with moderate interest, opened up a future. For the first time, promises of repayment could be fulfilled or honoured. The crisis of culture involves this: we have reached an epoch in which credit is increasingly blocked from offering a sustainable future because nowadays people take out loans to repay other loans. In other words, ‘creditism’ has entered its final crisis. People have amassed so many debts that the promise of repayment that underpins the credibility of our construction of the world is no longer viable. The seriousness of the promise vanishes in the mists. If you ask Americans how they imagine the debts amassed by the US federal government will be repaid, their response will undoubt- edly be: ‘Nobody knows. ’ And I think this not-knowing is the hard core of our crisis. Nobody on earth knows how the collective debt should be repaid. The future of our culture has run up against a wall of debt.
ŽIŽEK: I completely agree with the idea of a crisis of ‘futurism’ and of the logic of loans. Let’s take the so-called ‘sub-prime’ eco- nomic crisis of 2008: everybody knew it was impossible to repay those mortgage loans but everybody behaved as if they were able to do so. In my psychoanalytic jargon I call this fetishist denial: ‘I know it’s impossible but I’m going to try anyway. . . . ’ People are well aware they can’t do it but in practice they act as if they actu- ally could. All the same, I would rather use the term ‘future’ to describe what Peter Sloterdijk calls ‘creditism’. The word ‘future’ seems more open to me, incidentally. The expression, ‘no future’ is pessimistic, but the word ‘future’ is more optimistic. I’m not trying to revive Marxist communism, which actually resembles immense creditism. To describe our economic and political, ideological and intellectual situation, I can only quote what is probably an apocry- phal story. It’s about a telegram exchange between the German and the Austrian general staff in the First World War. The Germans sent the Austrians a telegram with the words, ‘The situation here on the front is serious but not disastrous. ’ To which the Austrians replied, ‘Our situation here is disastrous but not serious’! And that’s exactly what is disastrous: people can’t pay their debts but in a sense they don’t take it seriously. Beyond that wall of debts the present epoch is approaching a kind of zero point. First, the massive economic crisis forces us not to stay on the same politico-economic track any longer. Second, as we can see in China, capitalism will not be naturally tied to parliamentary democracy in the future. Third, the bio-genetic revolution is forcing us to find a different kind of bio- politics. As for the social divisions in the world as a whole, they
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create the conditions for unparalleled explosions and popular upris- ings . . .
LE MONDE: Multicultural capitalism or social individualism, global nationalism or global nomadism – the failure of Europe, the retreat into identities based on origins – the collective is also immersed in a crisis. How can the idea of communality be given new meaning today?
ŽIŽEK: Even if we must reject the naïve communitarianism, the homogenization of cultures and the kind of multiculturalism that has become the ideology of the new spirit of capitalism, we must still make the different cultures and the individual persons enter into dia- logue with each other. On the level of the individual we need a new logic of discretion, of distance or even of not-knowing. Coexistence in a tight space has become a total reality, which means we are dealing with a need that is vital for life, a crucial point.
On the collective level we must really find a different way to articulate communality. Multiculturalism is completely wrong as a response to the problem, on the one hand because it is a kind of unprofessed racism that respects the identity of the other but impris- ons him or her in terms of their particular characteristics. It’s a kind of neo-colonialism that reverses classical colonialism by ‘respecting’ communities, but from the perspective of its universal stance. On the other hand, multicultural tolerance is a decoy that de-politicizes public debate and diverts social questions towards race issues and economic questions towards ethnic issues. This attitude of the postmodern left wing is intrinsically estranged from the world in many respects. Buddhism, for example, can serve and legitimate an extreme form of militarism. In the period between 1930 and 1940, the entire institution of Zen Buddhism not only supported but also legitimated the hegemony of Japanese imperialism. I like using the word ‘communism’, particularly to provoke upper-class types, but the questions I am asking actually relate to ‘communal’ properties such as biogenetics and ecology.
SLOTERDIJK: We have to rediscover the real problems of our times. The memory of communism and of the great tragic experience of twentieth-century politics warns us that there are no dogmatic and automatic ideological solutions. The problem of the twenty-first century is that of coexistence in a ‘humankind’ that has become a physical reality. It is no longer a matter of the ‘abstract universalism’ of the Enlightenment but of the real universality of an enormous collective that is starting to become a real-life community of circulation with greater opportunities for continual encounters and clashes.
We have become like particles of a gas under pressure. The
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question nowadays concerns social ties within an oversized society, and I think the legacy of the so-called religions is important because they represent the first attempts at meta-national or meta-ethnic syntheses. The Buddhist sangha was a spaceship in which desert- ers from all ethnic backgrounds could take refuge. We could use a similar description for Christianity, which is a kind of social synthesis that transcends the dynamic of closed ethnicities and the subdivisions of class societies. The dialogue of religion in our times is nothing but reformatting of the problem of ‘communism’. The assembly held in Chicago in 1893, the World’s Parliament of Religions, was a particular way to pose questions for our times with the aid of these fragments, these representatives of unknown origin of the human family members who had lost touch with each other after they left Africa . . . In the age of assembly, human beings have to restructure and reformat everything they previously thought about the bond of coexistence of a humankind without boundaries. That is why I use the term ‘co-immunism’.
All the social federations of history, from primal hordes to world empires are, in fact, structures of co-immunity. The choice of this concept recalls the communist legacy. In my analysis, communism goes back to Rousseau and his idea of the ‘religion of man’. This is a constitutive term, a sort of communitarianism on a global scale. This exaggerated homogenization inevitably had terrible consequences – but they were probably unavoidable errors. Although we know more today, the problem still oppresses us. We can’t escape this situ- ation. The goddess, or divine being, that appears on the last pages of my book is the crisis: it is the only instance that has enough author- ity to make us change our lives. 1 Our starting point is a shattering, evident truth: we can’t go on like this.
ŽIŽEK: I’m less interested in looking for ‘co-immunism’ than in reviving the idea of true communism. But I assure you, it is more about Kafka’s than Stalin’s communism, more about the com- munism of Erik Satie than that of Lenin. In his last short story, ‘Josephine the Singer or The Mouse Folk’, Kafka sketched the utopia of an egalitarian society, a world in which artists like the singer Josephine, whose singing draws big crowds and fascinates and astonishes them, are celebrated and showered with compli- ments but without gaining any material benefits from this. It is a picture of a society of recognition that maintains ritual and revives community festivities but without hierarchy or herd behaviour.
1 Peter Sloterdijk, You Must Change Your Life, trans. Wieland Hoban (Cambridge: Polity), 2013, p. 444.
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The same applies to Erik Satie.