I avoid the Jewish
clothiers
because they have second-rate stuff.
Adorno-T-Authoritarian-Personality-Harper-Bros-1950
) "I decided when I was in Washington.
Of course, I was half decided when I was at business school, where business law was emphasized.
When I was in high school, my financial means were such that I figured I had better get a general business education and then go to work.
(In what ways does law appeal to you?
) Well, it seems to me to unlock an awful lot of doors.
In any profession, you go so far and then you bump up against it.
It is the fundamental basis of our government.
It is really the foundation of our enterprise.
Sometime I have hopes of making it available to people without funds, so that they can have equal sittings in the court.
I want to go in for a general practice at the start and then maybe corporate law and then maybe criminal law.
Law will be more important in the future than ever before.
There is a trend toward more stringent laws, more regimentation.
This will be true whether the form of govern- ment alters or not.
Economists have detennined that for the good of everybody there has to be central control.
(What does your father think of the law?
) My father is quite interested in it.
Of course, he wanted business for me.
He has busi- ness ability but he is a very retiring fellow.
He wouldn't meet people.
He owned some lumber land, but mostly he preferred working for other people.
He is very
unassuming; he worked in the woods and in the mills. His $1,ooo income now is from investments, stocks and bonds. He hasn't worked for thirty years. At the time he worked, the wage was around $75 a month. He had stomach trouble. Yes, he owns his own home in a little town. We have our own cistern and an electric pump that I helped install. He built the old house himself and he has all the modern conveniences. He can get by all right on $1,ooo a year. "
Income: (You want to earn $5,ooo per year? ) "Well, $5,ooo sounds like a lot of money right now. It depends on where you live and how. In ordinary circum- stances you could live comfortably on it. The opportunities for a lawyer in a small town are limited, but I do like the small town. Especially those that are adjacent
2 The interviewer wrote as rapidly as he could, in a "shorthand" of hi~ own, throughout the interview and then immediately used a dictaphone to record all that he had written. In this way it was possible to approach a verbatim recording of what the subject had said. Throughout the book, the interviewer's report of the interview is given in small type. Quotation marks within this material indicate a verbatim record of the subject's statements.
? 34
THE AUTHORITARIAN PERSONALITY
to the mountains. I enjoy hunting, fishing, and camping. But I like the conveniences of the city. In the city you have finer houses and the theaters. I haven't found any place I like better than California, and I have traveled quite a lot. I'm going to travel to Alaska. My father's brother died there in the Yukon. There are great possibilities there in the future. If a person studies it carefully and locates properly, he goes up with a town. J. worked with some men lumbering last summer who worked on the Alaska highway. They found it pretty tough going. But these difficulties can be overcome if big capitalists get interested. There is a huge pool of oil up there, you know, and that ought to be developed. "
Politics: "I voted for Dewey. In previous times I would have voted for FDR, but I worked there in Washington and saw things I would put a stop to. There is a concentration of power in the bureaus. People who work there have different attitudes. In the Civil Service you are paid according to how many people are under you, so they want people to come in. They think of themselves only. I'm not mercenary enough to understand it. I would simplify things by a competent administration. There is too much overlapping and bungling. I was the right-hand man of the General there when the OWl was introduced. They put up this build- ing for $6oo,ooo with little purpose in mind. They did the same thing that the Army monitoring service was already doing. The OWl wanted to take it over. Even after the OWl took it over, the War Department still helped prepare the communiques; but the OWl wanted credit. All that duplication at a tremendous outlay of money for no purpose. And all the time our department was crying for personnel. I worked many hours overtime for no pay because I was in the Civil Service. I was there from September, 1940, to September, 1942. I was there when war was declared. I worked then for thirty-seven hours straight. It was quite a day in Washington. I liked living in Washington very much. I like being close to the center of things. You can learn a lot about how the government functions. There
are daily events at your fingertips that by the time it gets here have changed some- how. It was fun knowing about the background, knowing about the secret com- mittees. My salary was $2,ooo a year. Living conditions, of course, were terrible. (What did you like about Dewey especially? ) I liked Dewey's background, his frankness, honesty, his clear-cut way of presenting his case. I think that at heart he is a very honest man, interested in maintaining the old government traditions. (How do you see things shaping up for the future? ) If we maintain our present system of government, and I think we will for a time, some things will have to be altered. The system in Washington has outgrown the limits of one man to control. We have got to eliminate confusion. The man who runs it must pick his lieutenants carefully. The way it is now, there is no clear authority. You have to consult a half a dozen agencies to get anywhere. This will recede very little after the war. Eventually the President will have to appoint a strong Cabinet to run things for him. There is no doubt that the system is becoming more centralized. I doubt that President Roosevelt will be reelected. It depends on the way the war goes. From his speeches, one seems to see that he feels he is necessary to the United States. He has control of the Party and will run as long as he is physically able. The popular vote in the last election was very close. It was skilful politics that enabled the old guard to win. Considering his obstacles, Dewey did very well. In ordinary times, he would have had a landslide. People who had sons in the war effort felt that taking the President out might prolong the war. That was wrong. The Army and the Navy were prepared for the war ten years in advance. General Marshall would have had a lot to say, whoever was elected. I have sat beside him and heard him talk. Nobody could alter his position. A change of presidents might have altered
? CONTRASTING IDEOLOGIES OF TWO COLLEGE MEN
35
our relations to England, but riot to Russia. Recently there has been a lot of oppo- sition to Churchill. He has been OK in war, but how he will be in peace is a ques- tion. There is, of course, close feeling between Roosevelt and Churchill. But Roosevelt would come out second-best in a contest with Winnie. Of course, a lot of Roosevelt's ideas came from Hoover. (Would there be a difference in our rela- tions with Russia? ) No, there would be no difference in our relations with Russia. I think Joe Stalin would play pretty fair with us. And Dewey is honest to the death. He has a good background, though not of the wealthy class, and he would think of the average people. His honesty and straightforwardness appeal to me greatly. But a man has to use some underhandedness to get across the highest ideals. "
Religion: "On my father's side, my folks were Catholic. My father and his brothers and sisters were Catholic. Father was never deeply religious, but he was a good man. He drank but little, and he never smoked. He was very honest and strict in his dealings. He followed the church rules without going to church. It stems back to his not wanting to meet people. He was very retiring, and I can't understand it. The other members of his family were not that way. His sisters are very average. My mother was a Methodist and quite strict up until her death. I was sick much of the time. She brought us up very strictly under this guidance. Her aunt took us in hand when Mother died and saw that we attended Sunday School with her children. That was up until I was twelve or thirteen. Then I got out of the habit. I like church OK, though I disagree with some of its doctrines. I like the music and singing in church. I was so busy since high school that I stopped going. I have gone in for social things in spite of a great dread of them. But I looked at my father and saw that I had to do differently. Yes, the teachings of Sunday School did mean something. But the arbitrary beliefs were too much. I grew up quickly. My father has allowed me to do as I pleased, although he forced some de- cisions upon me. About smoking, he said I must do it in front of him, if I must. He also provided wines and liquors in the ice chest. I soon tired of smoking and never took much to drinking. I have a stubborn nature, and if he had tried to stop me, I probably would have taken it up. (Under what conditions might you turn to re- ligion? ) Yes, under some conditions I might. I have had a lot of sickness, stomach trouble ever since I was twelve. I was in the hospital once for three months. During those periods, I like to turn to the Bible. I like the history and sayings of Christ, principally. I like to consider them and analyze them and figure out how they affect me. I'm not so interested in the apostles' sayings-that's not first-hand, so I don't accept it entirely. I have to be assured of it factually. I have always tried to live according to His Ten Commandments. I like to receive just treatment and to give it to others. (What about your conception of God? ) Well, I have none ~specially. The closest conception I got was when I was in the service, that is, God as strictly man, greater than any on this earth, one that would treat us as a father would his son. I don't think God is terrible in His justice. If one lives justly, his laxness will be overlooked. The thing is to make things happier and juster on the earth. "
Minorities: "My mother comes from an Irish-English-German background. I think of myself as Irish-perhaps because my father is definitely so, and proud of it. He likes the thought of St. Patrick's Day. I have a quick temper like the Irish. If there is a lot of Irish in people, they are very enjoyable. They are easy spenders, even though they never have much. They have the ability to make other people happy. They are often witty. I wish I were more like that. But there is too much of the lackadaisical and laziness in some classes of Irish. (Which groups would you contrast with the Irish? ) The Irish are most different from the Germans or Dutch
? THE AUTHORITARIAN PERSONALITY
or maybe the Scandinavians-perhaps Polish or White Russians, where you find a more stolid person in thought and action. The types that I have encountered have a solid build and are not very excitable. (Question about Irish assimilating. ) I like to think of an Irish strain; it is enjoyable. Yet in some people the Irish seems to predominate. It depends on the individual. I don't have any desire to be Irish, but I like people who are. I never met an Irishman I didn't like. My brother-in-law is very definitely Irish. (What about groups of people you dislike? ) Principally those I don't understand very well. Austrians, the Japanese I never cared for; Filipinos-! don't know-rd just as soon leave them as have them. Up home there were Austrians and Poles, though I find the Polish people interesting. I have a
little dislike for Jewish people. I don't think they are as courteous or as interested in humanity as they ought to be. And I resent that, though I have had few dealings with them. They accent the clannish and the material. It may be my imagination, but it seems to me you can see their eyes light up when you hand them a coin.
I avoid the Jewish clothiers because they have second-rate stuff. I have to be care- ful about how I dress. I mean, I buy things so seldom I have to be careful I get good things. (Can you tell that a person is a Jew? ) Sometimes; usually only after I get their ideas. Like one of the girls in Public Speaking. She had all the charac- teristics, but she left a favorable impression on me, even though her ideas I dis- agree with. (You mean there are certain ideas which characterize the Jews? ) Yes, to stick together, no matter what; to always be in a group; to have Jewish sororities and Jewish organizations. If a Jew fails in his business, he's helped to get started again. Their attention is directed very greatly toward wealth. Girls at the Jewish sorority house all have fur coats, expensive but no taste. Almost a superiority idea. I resent any show of superiority in people, and I try to keep it down myself. I like to talk with working people. (Do you think the dislike of Jews is increasing? ) No, I think this war has made people closer together in this country. I've come across Jewish soldiers and sailors; they would be liked and accepted if they would be willing to mix, but they would rather be alone, though I would have accepted them the same as anybody. I think they have interesting ideas, but they have to have something in return. (Do you think the Jews have done their part in the war effort? ) Perhaps they have, but they are businessmen, and they have been fully repaid. (Do you think the Jews are a political force in this country? ) Yes, in New York there is an organization for Jewish immigration and comfort of Jews. They are very well organized. This should not be allowed. (What do you think is the danger? ) I don't believe it is a danger except in a concentration of wealth in a certain class. I hate to see people in this country take on the burdens of people who have been misfits in other countries. We have enough problems at home without helping the oppressed of other countries. The Jews won't intermingle. So they are
not a great contribution to our country-though Jewish scientists and doctors have contributed a great deal. I checked on the immigration. Three-quarters of those leaving Europe arrive here. They are very thorough in it. They are businessmen and they will bring pressure to bear on Congress. We ought to prevent further immigration and concentrate on trying to get them to mingle and become a part of our people. (Do you think they would mingle more if they felt there was no prejudice against them? ) If they would mingle more, there would be more will- ingness to break down the barriers on the part of other people. Of course, they have always been downtrodden, but that's no reason for resentment. (I notice you stated you wouldn't marry a Jew. ) I certainly wouldn't. I would date that girl in Public Speaking, but she doesn't emphasize her Jewishness. She was accepted by
? CONTRASTING IDEOLOGIES OF TWO COLLEGE MEN
37
the whole class. I would marry her if she had thrown off her Jewishness, but I wouldn't be able to associate with her class. "
C. LARRY: A MAN LOW ON ETHNOCENTRISM
This subject is a twenty-eight year old college sophomore, a student of Business Administration, with a B- average. Like Mack, his choice of a career was made after he had been out of school for a number of years-working part of the time and spending part of the time in a tuberculosis sanitarium.
He is of "American" extraction and was born in Chicago. Both parents were born in the United States. His father is a cafe and bar owner (a small businessman, working in his own business), whose income is now $rz,ooo as compared with a prewar $3,ooo. The father owns his own home and some other real estate.
The subject, like his parents, is a Methodist, though he attends church seldom. He is a Republican-again like his parents. He "agrees" with the Willkie-type Republicans and "disagrees" with the traditional Republicans; he "disagrees" with the New Deal Democrats, while "agreeing" with the Anti-New Deal Democrats. This pattern of response, on the questionnaire, is the same as that of Mack, the high-scoring man. It will be especially inter- esting therefore to note the contrast in the political ideologies of these two men as given in the interview. It will show how great, sometimes, is the discrepancy between the political party or the "official" ideology of a subject and his actual political tendencies.
Vocation: "I have definite plans; I want to go into real estate and finance. I want to own my own business as an executive. I want to combine real estate and finance, that is lending money, and if successful, I would go into a brokerage business, buying and selling stocks and bonds. (Money? ) Several of my relatives and my father have money, and will suppon me. I worked for them, as assistant manager for my father who is in a cafe and bar business, and he is also in real estate. Then I worked for CPA accounting firms, for several, and I have taken courses where I could pick things up, in accounting and business. I had one year of
junior college, but I didn't take my work seriously. I got fairly good grades, but not as good as I should have gotten. I got a disease; I was in the hospital for four years. (It took several questions to learn that the subject had tuberculosis and was in a sanitarium. ) But I never lost hope. I always planned to return to college. I took correspondence courses during my last two years in the hospital. (Larry always calls it a hospital, never a sanitarium. ) In accounting, business management, etc. , I did reading to improve my mind. I almost memorized Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends . . . because I thought it would help me in business contacts. I planned my whole life, even where I'd settle down, in Los Angeles. That was all I had to do, lying there in bed, was plan my whole future, what I would do, and how I would do it. (What do you like about your planned business? ) My grandmother had a rather successful restaurant; she was a very efficient businesswoman, and I admired her. My whole environment was about business; it glorified it, and I
? THE AUTHORITARIAN PERSONALITY
learned the same attitude. Being in business for yourself gives independence, more money, vacations whenever you want, the freedom you don't get in a 365-days-a- year job. I never cared for sciences like chemistry, zoology, dentistry, and stuff like that. (Medicine? ) That would be all right if I thought I could go to the top; but the average one is holed up in a top-floor office, not making more than $zoo a month very often. That's nothing compared to a businessman who hasn't had any education or worked to prepare himself as a doctor has. It's not only the money, but also the general way of living. (However, the money seems to be clearly and focally important. ) I returned to school for three reasons: ( r) knowledge-to be able to philosophize and understand things; (2) security-to get an adequate liv- ing; (3) social prestige. " (This is a good example of Larry's tendency to make everything organized and explicit. He knows just what he wants to do and why he wants to do it, and has even tried to make psychological explanations for this tendency. He enumerated r, z, 1 on his fingertips. )
Income: "I'd like to earn at least $zs,ooo a year and have a personal capital of $roo,ooo, that is to say, my own money apart from the business, So I could travel, do whatever I want, whatever I see other people do, go to Europe, attend the Kentucky Derby, or whatever. I would travel first class, go by air, see South America, go nearly any place. I've traveled only a litde so far. Or, go to a con- vention in the East if I want to. Not a millionaire, just enough to do these things with full security for the future. (How optimistic or pessimistic are you? ) I'm very optimistic. I don't know exacdy how much, but I'll be at least fairly success- ful, probably as I said before. I've already had a little success. Last year in Chicago I had an opportunity to go into business with some men in the cabaret and bowling- alley business, along that line. But they didn't offer enough money, and I didn't like the bowling business anyway. Besides, I wanted to come back to school, lay a basis for my final plans, and having my own business. (What if you fail? ) I wouldn't commit suicide or get terribly depressed. That sickness (he never calls it by name) taught me to philosophize, to take things as they come with a smile, to start again fresh after every difficulty. (What about your family? ) During the depression my father had a good job, as always; not wealthy, but better than average, about $3,ooo a year, I guess; but we had a large family, six children; I'm in the middle. Then he went into business and did very well; he now has a gold-mine bar. He makes more in a year than he ever expected to make in a lifetime. He has also bought some property on the side and is making a lot at that. He is like his mother, my grandmother. She and he just love their business. He doesn't want vacations, or social prestige, or wealth as such. He just wants to be an efficient, successful businessman, and all his pleasure comes from that. I guess it's wanting to have satisfied customers, having them come in for years and be satisfied and to have well-coordinated employees. (What kind of a boss is he? ) He is kind but firm. He bought homes for two employees; he lets them pay it off to him gradu- ally. He gives them a Christmas bonus, stuff like that, but he also demands effi- ciency and output. He is an ideal employer. In fact, I don't think I'd be as good to my employees as he is, like risking money on their homes and not knowing whether they might run out on me or not. "
Politics: "My father and mother are Republicans. They never voted for Roosevelt. I have voted in two elections, and I voted Republican. But our rela- tives are Democrats and our friends too. The whole family has been Republican for years and I guess that's why I am, and that's why my father is too. Also because businessmen generally don't like the taxes, restrictions, and bureaus, the red tape. Roosevelt is too much of a politician; he hasn't enough principles. Like the way
? CO~TRASTI~G IDEOLOGIES OF TWO COLLEGE ;vm~
39
he threw over Wallace in the last election. I prefer Jones to Wallace as Secretary of Commerce, because Jones is a better businessman and would be more efficient; in general I like Wallace and Willkie, though I don't like Wallace's farm program. (Who is the best Republican? ) Willkie. I voted for Dewey mostly as a protest against Roosevelt. But Dewey is too young and not experienced enough. (Dewey vs. Wallace? ) Wallace is the better man, and I usually vote for the better man, but I guess I put politics ahead of the man this time, to get the Republicans back. I think it's time for a change of party. "
Minorities: (What do you think about the minority problem in this country? ) "I can say that I haven't any prejudices; I try not to. (Negroes? ) They should be given social equality, any job they are qualified for; should be able to live in any neighborhood, and so on. When I was young, I may have had prejudices, but since the war I've been reading about the whole world, and our minority problems seem so petty compared with the way other countries have worked things out. (Ex- ample? ) Like Russia; I don't like their share-the-wealth economics, but I think they are unified and fighting so wonderfully because everyone is equal. (He then gives a discourse on France, England, the Dutch, etc. , and shows good knowledge of imperialism, exploitation of colonies, and so on, in the minorities aspect. He is less clear about the economics. ) I believe in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happi- ness for all. We aren't unified and we don't know what we're fighting for, and the discrimination is at the root of it. Racial and economic questions are at the root of war. I don't believe in the suppression of anyone. I think the Japs are taken off the coast for undemocratic reasons. It's just that a lot of people wanted their farms and businesses. There was no real democratic reason for it. The segregation of one nationality just leads to more segregation, and it gets worse. The discrimination toward Negroes is because they aren't understood and because they are physically different. Towards Jews it's because of their business ability-the fear that they'll take over business control of the country. There should be education in Negro history, for instance, the part Negroes have played in the development of the country; and education in the history of other minorities, too. How the Jews came to be persecuted, and why some of them are successful. "
Religion: "I'm Methodist, and my family is Methodist, except for one brother who is going to be a Catholic priest. He's fifteen. He just likes it-he got into it by himself. Well, my mother was Catholic as a girl, but she became a Methodist when she married, and she didn't try to make any of us Catholics. (Value of religion? ) It teaches the morals of right and wrong; that's the main value. But I question lots of religious teachings, after studying science and philosophy-like Darwin's evolu- tion theory and the fact that man's history goes back to before the Bible. I go to church, I try to beli~ve in religion, but I sometimes question much of it. I enjoy church, a good sermon on morals and good living, and how to progress. That's what's most important about religion (Parents? ) They were church attenders, fairly religious; they sent us to Sunday School; they still say blessing before each meal. But they don't discuss religion or think much about it outside of church. "
D. ANALYSIS OF THE TWO CASES
Before we turn to the analysis of these two interviews, a few words con- cerning their significance for our major research problem may be injected. It will probably be granted that each of these protocols gives a total im-
? THE AUTHORITARIAN PERSONALITY
pression. Though each contains some contradictions, each appears to be relatively organized and relatively self-consistent psychologically. What is the importance for prejudice or potential fascism of such overall patterns? It may be argued that overt behavior in specific situations forms the crux of social discrimination, and that the most pressing need is for infor1Ilation concerning how many people today will, under given conditions, engage in this or that discriminatory practice. This kind of information is important, but it is not the particular concern of the present research. The major con- cern here is with the potential for fascism in this country. Since we do not have fascism, and since overt antidemocratic actions are officially frowned upon, surveys of what people actually do at the present time are likely to underestimate the danger. The question asked here is what is the degree of readiness to behave antidemocratically should social conditions change in such a way as to remove or reduce the restraint upon this kind of behavior? This readiness, according to the present theory, is integral with the total mental organization here being considered.
Though each ideological pattern may be regarded as a whole, it is a com- plex whole, one that embraces numerous features with respect to which individuals may differ significantly. It is not enough to say that the one man is "prejudiced" and the other "unprejudiced," and on this basis to make value judgments and to plan for action. What are the distinguishing fea- tures? How is their presence within the individual to be accounted for? What is their role within his over-all adjustment? How do they interact with other features to form an organized totality?
In order to arrive at answers to these questions, the first task, it appears, is one of description. It is necessary to inquire, first, what are the trends or themes which run through an individual's discussion of each ideological area and through his discussion of ideology in general and, second, in what respect are these contents (variables) similar to and how do they differ from those found in another subject.
The following examination of the interview protocols just presented is designed to illustrate the kinds of descriptive concepts used in the present study, and to show the manner of their derivation. The analysis was guided by a theoretical approach, and it is to be recognized that another approach might draw attention to other aspects of the cases; there seems little reason to doubt, however, that the features here distinguished are among the most important ones.
unassuming; he worked in the woods and in the mills. His $1,ooo income now is from investments, stocks and bonds. He hasn't worked for thirty years. At the time he worked, the wage was around $75 a month. He had stomach trouble. Yes, he owns his own home in a little town. We have our own cistern and an electric pump that I helped install. He built the old house himself and he has all the modern conveniences. He can get by all right on $1,ooo a year. "
Income: (You want to earn $5,ooo per year? ) "Well, $5,ooo sounds like a lot of money right now. It depends on where you live and how. In ordinary circum- stances you could live comfortably on it. The opportunities for a lawyer in a small town are limited, but I do like the small town. Especially those that are adjacent
2 The interviewer wrote as rapidly as he could, in a "shorthand" of hi~ own, throughout the interview and then immediately used a dictaphone to record all that he had written. In this way it was possible to approach a verbatim recording of what the subject had said. Throughout the book, the interviewer's report of the interview is given in small type. Quotation marks within this material indicate a verbatim record of the subject's statements.
? 34
THE AUTHORITARIAN PERSONALITY
to the mountains. I enjoy hunting, fishing, and camping. But I like the conveniences of the city. In the city you have finer houses and the theaters. I haven't found any place I like better than California, and I have traveled quite a lot. I'm going to travel to Alaska. My father's brother died there in the Yukon. There are great possibilities there in the future. If a person studies it carefully and locates properly, he goes up with a town. J. worked with some men lumbering last summer who worked on the Alaska highway. They found it pretty tough going. But these difficulties can be overcome if big capitalists get interested. There is a huge pool of oil up there, you know, and that ought to be developed. "
Politics: "I voted for Dewey. In previous times I would have voted for FDR, but I worked there in Washington and saw things I would put a stop to. There is a concentration of power in the bureaus. People who work there have different attitudes. In the Civil Service you are paid according to how many people are under you, so they want people to come in. They think of themselves only. I'm not mercenary enough to understand it. I would simplify things by a competent administration. There is too much overlapping and bungling. I was the right-hand man of the General there when the OWl was introduced. They put up this build- ing for $6oo,ooo with little purpose in mind. They did the same thing that the Army monitoring service was already doing. The OWl wanted to take it over. Even after the OWl took it over, the War Department still helped prepare the communiques; but the OWl wanted credit. All that duplication at a tremendous outlay of money for no purpose. And all the time our department was crying for personnel. I worked many hours overtime for no pay because I was in the Civil Service. I was there from September, 1940, to September, 1942. I was there when war was declared. I worked then for thirty-seven hours straight. It was quite a day in Washington. I liked living in Washington very much. I like being close to the center of things. You can learn a lot about how the government functions. There
are daily events at your fingertips that by the time it gets here have changed some- how. It was fun knowing about the background, knowing about the secret com- mittees. My salary was $2,ooo a year. Living conditions, of course, were terrible. (What did you like about Dewey especially? ) I liked Dewey's background, his frankness, honesty, his clear-cut way of presenting his case. I think that at heart he is a very honest man, interested in maintaining the old government traditions. (How do you see things shaping up for the future? ) If we maintain our present system of government, and I think we will for a time, some things will have to be altered. The system in Washington has outgrown the limits of one man to control. We have got to eliminate confusion. The man who runs it must pick his lieutenants carefully. The way it is now, there is no clear authority. You have to consult a half a dozen agencies to get anywhere. This will recede very little after the war. Eventually the President will have to appoint a strong Cabinet to run things for him. There is no doubt that the system is becoming more centralized. I doubt that President Roosevelt will be reelected. It depends on the way the war goes. From his speeches, one seems to see that he feels he is necessary to the United States. He has control of the Party and will run as long as he is physically able. The popular vote in the last election was very close. It was skilful politics that enabled the old guard to win. Considering his obstacles, Dewey did very well. In ordinary times, he would have had a landslide. People who had sons in the war effort felt that taking the President out might prolong the war. That was wrong. The Army and the Navy were prepared for the war ten years in advance. General Marshall would have had a lot to say, whoever was elected. I have sat beside him and heard him talk. Nobody could alter his position. A change of presidents might have altered
? CONTRASTING IDEOLOGIES OF TWO COLLEGE MEN
35
our relations to England, but riot to Russia. Recently there has been a lot of oppo- sition to Churchill. He has been OK in war, but how he will be in peace is a ques- tion. There is, of course, close feeling between Roosevelt and Churchill. But Roosevelt would come out second-best in a contest with Winnie. Of course, a lot of Roosevelt's ideas came from Hoover. (Would there be a difference in our rela- tions with Russia? ) No, there would be no difference in our relations with Russia. I think Joe Stalin would play pretty fair with us. And Dewey is honest to the death. He has a good background, though not of the wealthy class, and he would think of the average people. His honesty and straightforwardness appeal to me greatly. But a man has to use some underhandedness to get across the highest ideals. "
Religion: "On my father's side, my folks were Catholic. My father and his brothers and sisters were Catholic. Father was never deeply religious, but he was a good man. He drank but little, and he never smoked. He was very honest and strict in his dealings. He followed the church rules without going to church. It stems back to his not wanting to meet people. He was very retiring, and I can't understand it. The other members of his family were not that way. His sisters are very average. My mother was a Methodist and quite strict up until her death. I was sick much of the time. She brought us up very strictly under this guidance. Her aunt took us in hand when Mother died and saw that we attended Sunday School with her children. That was up until I was twelve or thirteen. Then I got out of the habit. I like church OK, though I disagree with some of its doctrines. I like the music and singing in church. I was so busy since high school that I stopped going. I have gone in for social things in spite of a great dread of them. But I looked at my father and saw that I had to do differently. Yes, the teachings of Sunday School did mean something. But the arbitrary beliefs were too much. I grew up quickly. My father has allowed me to do as I pleased, although he forced some de- cisions upon me. About smoking, he said I must do it in front of him, if I must. He also provided wines and liquors in the ice chest. I soon tired of smoking and never took much to drinking. I have a stubborn nature, and if he had tried to stop me, I probably would have taken it up. (Under what conditions might you turn to re- ligion? ) Yes, under some conditions I might. I have had a lot of sickness, stomach trouble ever since I was twelve. I was in the hospital once for three months. During those periods, I like to turn to the Bible. I like the history and sayings of Christ, principally. I like to consider them and analyze them and figure out how they affect me. I'm not so interested in the apostles' sayings-that's not first-hand, so I don't accept it entirely. I have to be assured of it factually. I have always tried to live according to His Ten Commandments. I like to receive just treatment and to give it to others. (What about your conception of God? ) Well, I have none ~specially. The closest conception I got was when I was in the service, that is, God as strictly man, greater than any on this earth, one that would treat us as a father would his son. I don't think God is terrible in His justice. If one lives justly, his laxness will be overlooked. The thing is to make things happier and juster on the earth. "
Minorities: "My mother comes from an Irish-English-German background. I think of myself as Irish-perhaps because my father is definitely so, and proud of it. He likes the thought of St. Patrick's Day. I have a quick temper like the Irish. If there is a lot of Irish in people, they are very enjoyable. They are easy spenders, even though they never have much. They have the ability to make other people happy. They are often witty. I wish I were more like that. But there is too much of the lackadaisical and laziness in some classes of Irish. (Which groups would you contrast with the Irish? ) The Irish are most different from the Germans or Dutch
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or maybe the Scandinavians-perhaps Polish or White Russians, where you find a more stolid person in thought and action. The types that I have encountered have a solid build and are not very excitable. (Question about Irish assimilating. ) I like to think of an Irish strain; it is enjoyable. Yet in some people the Irish seems to predominate. It depends on the individual. I don't have any desire to be Irish, but I like people who are. I never met an Irishman I didn't like. My brother-in-law is very definitely Irish. (What about groups of people you dislike? ) Principally those I don't understand very well. Austrians, the Japanese I never cared for; Filipinos-! don't know-rd just as soon leave them as have them. Up home there were Austrians and Poles, though I find the Polish people interesting. I have a
little dislike for Jewish people. I don't think they are as courteous or as interested in humanity as they ought to be. And I resent that, though I have had few dealings with them. They accent the clannish and the material. It may be my imagination, but it seems to me you can see their eyes light up when you hand them a coin.
I avoid the Jewish clothiers because they have second-rate stuff. I have to be care- ful about how I dress. I mean, I buy things so seldom I have to be careful I get good things. (Can you tell that a person is a Jew? ) Sometimes; usually only after I get their ideas. Like one of the girls in Public Speaking. She had all the charac- teristics, but she left a favorable impression on me, even though her ideas I dis- agree with. (You mean there are certain ideas which characterize the Jews? ) Yes, to stick together, no matter what; to always be in a group; to have Jewish sororities and Jewish organizations. If a Jew fails in his business, he's helped to get started again. Their attention is directed very greatly toward wealth. Girls at the Jewish sorority house all have fur coats, expensive but no taste. Almost a superiority idea. I resent any show of superiority in people, and I try to keep it down myself. I like to talk with working people. (Do you think the dislike of Jews is increasing? ) No, I think this war has made people closer together in this country. I've come across Jewish soldiers and sailors; they would be liked and accepted if they would be willing to mix, but they would rather be alone, though I would have accepted them the same as anybody. I think they have interesting ideas, but they have to have something in return. (Do you think the Jews have done their part in the war effort? ) Perhaps they have, but they are businessmen, and they have been fully repaid. (Do you think the Jews are a political force in this country? ) Yes, in New York there is an organization for Jewish immigration and comfort of Jews. They are very well organized. This should not be allowed. (What do you think is the danger? ) I don't believe it is a danger except in a concentration of wealth in a certain class. I hate to see people in this country take on the burdens of people who have been misfits in other countries. We have enough problems at home without helping the oppressed of other countries. The Jews won't intermingle. So they are
not a great contribution to our country-though Jewish scientists and doctors have contributed a great deal. I checked on the immigration. Three-quarters of those leaving Europe arrive here. They are very thorough in it. They are businessmen and they will bring pressure to bear on Congress. We ought to prevent further immigration and concentrate on trying to get them to mingle and become a part of our people. (Do you think they would mingle more if they felt there was no prejudice against them? ) If they would mingle more, there would be more will- ingness to break down the barriers on the part of other people. Of course, they have always been downtrodden, but that's no reason for resentment. (I notice you stated you wouldn't marry a Jew. ) I certainly wouldn't. I would date that girl in Public Speaking, but she doesn't emphasize her Jewishness. She was accepted by
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the whole class. I would marry her if she had thrown off her Jewishness, but I wouldn't be able to associate with her class. "
C. LARRY: A MAN LOW ON ETHNOCENTRISM
This subject is a twenty-eight year old college sophomore, a student of Business Administration, with a B- average. Like Mack, his choice of a career was made after he had been out of school for a number of years-working part of the time and spending part of the time in a tuberculosis sanitarium.
He is of "American" extraction and was born in Chicago. Both parents were born in the United States. His father is a cafe and bar owner (a small businessman, working in his own business), whose income is now $rz,ooo as compared with a prewar $3,ooo. The father owns his own home and some other real estate.
The subject, like his parents, is a Methodist, though he attends church seldom. He is a Republican-again like his parents. He "agrees" with the Willkie-type Republicans and "disagrees" with the traditional Republicans; he "disagrees" with the New Deal Democrats, while "agreeing" with the Anti-New Deal Democrats. This pattern of response, on the questionnaire, is the same as that of Mack, the high-scoring man. It will be especially inter- esting therefore to note the contrast in the political ideologies of these two men as given in the interview. It will show how great, sometimes, is the discrepancy between the political party or the "official" ideology of a subject and his actual political tendencies.
Vocation: "I have definite plans; I want to go into real estate and finance. I want to own my own business as an executive. I want to combine real estate and finance, that is lending money, and if successful, I would go into a brokerage business, buying and selling stocks and bonds. (Money? ) Several of my relatives and my father have money, and will suppon me. I worked for them, as assistant manager for my father who is in a cafe and bar business, and he is also in real estate. Then I worked for CPA accounting firms, for several, and I have taken courses where I could pick things up, in accounting and business. I had one year of
junior college, but I didn't take my work seriously. I got fairly good grades, but not as good as I should have gotten. I got a disease; I was in the hospital for four years. (It took several questions to learn that the subject had tuberculosis and was in a sanitarium. ) But I never lost hope. I always planned to return to college. I took correspondence courses during my last two years in the hospital. (Larry always calls it a hospital, never a sanitarium. ) In accounting, business management, etc. , I did reading to improve my mind. I almost memorized Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends . . . because I thought it would help me in business contacts. I planned my whole life, even where I'd settle down, in Los Angeles. That was all I had to do, lying there in bed, was plan my whole future, what I would do, and how I would do it. (What do you like about your planned business? ) My grandmother had a rather successful restaurant; she was a very efficient businesswoman, and I admired her. My whole environment was about business; it glorified it, and I
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learned the same attitude. Being in business for yourself gives independence, more money, vacations whenever you want, the freedom you don't get in a 365-days-a- year job. I never cared for sciences like chemistry, zoology, dentistry, and stuff like that. (Medicine? ) That would be all right if I thought I could go to the top; but the average one is holed up in a top-floor office, not making more than $zoo a month very often. That's nothing compared to a businessman who hasn't had any education or worked to prepare himself as a doctor has. It's not only the money, but also the general way of living. (However, the money seems to be clearly and focally important. ) I returned to school for three reasons: ( r) knowledge-to be able to philosophize and understand things; (2) security-to get an adequate liv- ing; (3) social prestige. " (This is a good example of Larry's tendency to make everything organized and explicit. He knows just what he wants to do and why he wants to do it, and has even tried to make psychological explanations for this tendency. He enumerated r, z, 1 on his fingertips. )
Income: "I'd like to earn at least $zs,ooo a year and have a personal capital of $roo,ooo, that is to say, my own money apart from the business, So I could travel, do whatever I want, whatever I see other people do, go to Europe, attend the Kentucky Derby, or whatever. I would travel first class, go by air, see South America, go nearly any place. I've traveled only a litde so far. Or, go to a con- vention in the East if I want to. Not a millionaire, just enough to do these things with full security for the future. (How optimistic or pessimistic are you? ) I'm very optimistic. I don't know exacdy how much, but I'll be at least fairly success- ful, probably as I said before. I've already had a little success. Last year in Chicago I had an opportunity to go into business with some men in the cabaret and bowling- alley business, along that line. But they didn't offer enough money, and I didn't like the bowling business anyway. Besides, I wanted to come back to school, lay a basis for my final plans, and having my own business. (What if you fail? ) I wouldn't commit suicide or get terribly depressed. That sickness (he never calls it by name) taught me to philosophize, to take things as they come with a smile, to start again fresh after every difficulty. (What about your family? ) During the depression my father had a good job, as always; not wealthy, but better than average, about $3,ooo a year, I guess; but we had a large family, six children; I'm in the middle. Then he went into business and did very well; he now has a gold-mine bar. He makes more in a year than he ever expected to make in a lifetime. He has also bought some property on the side and is making a lot at that. He is like his mother, my grandmother. She and he just love their business. He doesn't want vacations, or social prestige, or wealth as such. He just wants to be an efficient, successful businessman, and all his pleasure comes from that. I guess it's wanting to have satisfied customers, having them come in for years and be satisfied and to have well-coordinated employees. (What kind of a boss is he? ) He is kind but firm. He bought homes for two employees; he lets them pay it off to him gradu- ally. He gives them a Christmas bonus, stuff like that, but he also demands effi- ciency and output. He is an ideal employer. In fact, I don't think I'd be as good to my employees as he is, like risking money on their homes and not knowing whether they might run out on me or not. "
Politics: "My father and mother are Republicans. They never voted for Roosevelt. I have voted in two elections, and I voted Republican. But our rela- tives are Democrats and our friends too. The whole family has been Republican for years and I guess that's why I am, and that's why my father is too. Also because businessmen generally don't like the taxes, restrictions, and bureaus, the red tape. Roosevelt is too much of a politician; he hasn't enough principles. Like the way
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39
he threw over Wallace in the last election. I prefer Jones to Wallace as Secretary of Commerce, because Jones is a better businessman and would be more efficient; in general I like Wallace and Willkie, though I don't like Wallace's farm program. (Who is the best Republican? ) Willkie. I voted for Dewey mostly as a protest against Roosevelt. But Dewey is too young and not experienced enough. (Dewey vs. Wallace? ) Wallace is the better man, and I usually vote for the better man, but I guess I put politics ahead of the man this time, to get the Republicans back. I think it's time for a change of party. "
Minorities: (What do you think about the minority problem in this country? ) "I can say that I haven't any prejudices; I try not to. (Negroes? ) They should be given social equality, any job they are qualified for; should be able to live in any neighborhood, and so on. When I was young, I may have had prejudices, but since the war I've been reading about the whole world, and our minority problems seem so petty compared with the way other countries have worked things out. (Ex- ample? ) Like Russia; I don't like their share-the-wealth economics, but I think they are unified and fighting so wonderfully because everyone is equal. (He then gives a discourse on France, England, the Dutch, etc. , and shows good knowledge of imperialism, exploitation of colonies, and so on, in the minorities aspect. He is less clear about the economics. ) I believe in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happi- ness for all. We aren't unified and we don't know what we're fighting for, and the discrimination is at the root of it. Racial and economic questions are at the root of war. I don't believe in the suppression of anyone. I think the Japs are taken off the coast for undemocratic reasons. It's just that a lot of people wanted their farms and businesses. There was no real democratic reason for it. The segregation of one nationality just leads to more segregation, and it gets worse. The discrimination toward Negroes is because they aren't understood and because they are physically different. Towards Jews it's because of their business ability-the fear that they'll take over business control of the country. There should be education in Negro history, for instance, the part Negroes have played in the development of the country; and education in the history of other minorities, too. How the Jews came to be persecuted, and why some of them are successful. "
Religion: "I'm Methodist, and my family is Methodist, except for one brother who is going to be a Catholic priest. He's fifteen. He just likes it-he got into it by himself. Well, my mother was Catholic as a girl, but she became a Methodist when she married, and she didn't try to make any of us Catholics. (Value of religion? ) It teaches the morals of right and wrong; that's the main value. But I question lots of religious teachings, after studying science and philosophy-like Darwin's evolu- tion theory and the fact that man's history goes back to before the Bible. I go to church, I try to beli~ve in religion, but I sometimes question much of it. I enjoy church, a good sermon on morals and good living, and how to progress. That's what's most important about religion (Parents? ) They were church attenders, fairly religious; they sent us to Sunday School; they still say blessing before each meal. But they don't discuss religion or think much about it outside of church. "
D. ANALYSIS OF THE TWO CASES
Before we turn to the analysis of these two interviews, a few words con- cerning their significance for our major research problem may be injected. It will probably be granted that each of these protocols gives a total im-
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pression. Though each contains some contradictions, each appears to be relatively organized and relatively self-consistent psychologically. What is the importance for prejudice or potential fascism of such overall patterns? It may be argued that overt behavior in specific situations forms the crux of social discrimination, and that the most pressing need is for infor1Ilation concerning how many people today will, under given conditions, engage in this or that discriminatory practice. This kind of information is important, but it is not the particular concern of the present research. The major con- cern here is with the potential for fascism in this country. Since we do not have fascism, and since overt antidemocratic actions are officially frowned upon, surveys of what people actually do at the present time are likely to underestimate the danger. The question asked here is what is the degree of readiness to behave antidemocratically should social conditions change in such a way as to remove or reduce the restraint upon this kind of behavior? This readiness, according to the present theory, is integral with the total mental organization here being considered.
Though each ideological pattern may be regarded as a whole, it is a com- plex whole, one that embraces numerous features with respect to which individuals may differ significantly. It is not enough to say that the one man is "prejudiced" and the other "unprejudiced," and on this basis to make value judgments and to plan for action. What are the distinguishing fea- tures? How is their presence within the individual to be accounted for? What is their role within his over-all adjustment? How do they interact with other features to form an organized totality?
In order to arrive at answers to these questions, the first task, it appears, is one of description. It is necessary to inquire, first, what are the trends or themes which run through an individual's discussion of each ideological area and through his discussion of ideology in general and, second, in what respect are these contents (variables) similar to and how do they differ from those found in another subject.
The following examination of the interview protocols just presented is designed to illustrate the kinds of descriptive concepts used in the present study, and to show the manner of their derivation. The analysis was guided by a theoretical approach, and it is to be recognized that another approach might draw attention to other aspects of the cases; there seems little reason to doubt, however, that the features here distinguished are among the most important ones.
