[Sidenote: The eye, from afar, darts its rays upon the object, and
by beholding it comprehends its form.
by beholding it comprehends its form.
Chaucer - Boethius
at I shal
seyn.
[Sidenote: We see many things when they are done before our eyes;
such as a charioteer driving his chariot, and other things of like
nature. ]
but we seen many ? inges whan ? ei ben don byforn
oure eyen ry? t as men seen ? e karter worken in ? e 4720
to{ur}nynge {and} in attempryng or in adressy{n}g of hys
kartes or chariottes. ? and by ? is manere as who sei?
mayst ? ou vnd{er}sto{n}de of alle manere o? ir werkeme{n}.
[Sidenote: Now, is there any necessity which compels these things
to be done? ]
? Is ? ere ? anne any necessite as who sei? in oure lokynge 4724
[? {a}t] constreine? or compelli? any of ? ilke ? inges
to ben don so.
[Sidenote: _B. _ No. For if all things were moved by
compulsion--the efforts of art would be vain and fruitless. ]
b. nay q{uo}d I ? For in ydel {and} in
veyne were alle ? e effect of crafte yif ? at alle ? inges
weren moeued by constreynynge. ? at is to seyn by constreynynge 4728
of oure eyen or of oure sy? t.
[Sidenote: _P. _ The things, then, which are done are under no
necessity that they should be done; then first before they were
done, they were under no necessity of coming to pass; wherefore
some things happen, the event of which is unconstrained by
necessity. ]
_P. _ ? ise ? i{n}g{us}
? an q{uo}d she ? at whan men don hem ne han non
necessite ? at men don hem. eke ? o same ? inges first or
? ei be don. ? ei ben to comen wi? out necessite.
[Sidenote: [* fol. 37. ]]
for whi 4732
? er ben so{m}me ? inges to bytide of whiche ? e endys
{and} ? e bitidynges of hem ben absolut *{and} quit of alle
necessite.
[Sidenote: These things therefore, although foreknown, have free
events: for as the knowledge of present things imposes no
necessity upon things which are now done, so neither does the
foreknowledge of futurities necessitate the things which are to
come. ]
for certys I ne trowe nat ? at any man wolde seyn
? is. ? at ? o ? inges ? at men don now ? {a}t ? ei ne weren 4736
to bitiden. first or ? ei were ydon ? and ? ilk same
? inges al ? ou? ? {a}t men hadde{n} ywyst hem by-forn.
? itte ? ei han fre bitidynges. for ry? t as science of
? inges p{re}sent ne brynge? in no necessite to ? inges 4740
[? {a}t men doon // Ryht so the p{re}science of thinges to
comen ne bryngeth in no necessite to thinges] to bytiden
[Sidenote: But you may doubt whether there can be any certain
prescience of things, of which the event is not necessitated: for
here there seems to be an evident contradiction. ]
but ? ou mayst seyn ? at of ? ilke same it is ydouted. as
whe? er ? at of ? ilke ? inges ? at ne han non endes {and} 4744
bytidynges necessaryes yif ? er-of may ben any p{re}science
[Linenotes:
4708 _nowe_--now
4709 _susteni? _--ysustenyd
_stedfast_--stydefast
_ladd_--MS. ladde, C. lad
4714 _whiche_--which
4715 [_? at_]--from C.
_sholde_--sholden
4716 _demen_--MS. denyen
[_? at_]--from C.
4717 _necessite_--MS. necessites
4721 _hys_--hise
4725 [_? at_]--from C.
4727 _veyne_--veyn
_alle_--al
_crafte_--craft
4729 _? ise_--MS. ? ise ? ise, C. the
4732 _wi? out_--w{i}t{h}-owte
4733 _bytide_--bytyden
_whiche_--which
4737 _were_--weeren
_ydon_--MS. ydone, C. I-doon
_? ilk_--thilke
4741-2 [_? at----thinges_]--from C.
4744 _endes_--issues]
[[pg 164]]
[Headnote:
THE NATURE OF TRUE KNOWLEDGE. ]
[Sidenote: If things are foreknown, you may contend they must
necessarily happen; and if their event is not necessary, they
cannot be foreseen, because true knowledge can comprehend nothing
but what is absolutely certain. ]
? For certys ? ei seme to discorde. for ? ou
wenest ? at yif ? at ? inges ben yseyn byforn ? at necessite
folwe? hem. and yif ({et} putas) necessite faile? hem ? ei ne 4748
my? ten nat ben wist byforn. {and} ? at no ? inge ne may
ben comp{re}hendid by science but certeyne.
[Sidenote: And if things uncertain in their events are foreseen as
certain, this knowledge is nothing more than a false opinion. ]
{and} yif ? o
? inges ? at ne han no certeyne bytidynges ben ypurueied
as certeyn.
[Sidenote: For it is very remote from true knowledge to judge of
things otherwise than they really are. ]
it sholde ben dirkenesse of oppiniou{n} nat 4752
so? efastnesse of science [{and} ? {o}u weenyst ? {a}t it be diu{er}se
fro the hoolnesse of science / ? {a}t any man sholde deme
a thing to ben oother weys thanne it is it self].
[Sidenote: The cause of this error is that men imagine that their
knowledge is wholly derived from the nature of the things known,
whereas it is quite the reverse. ]
and ? e
cause of ? is errour is. ? at of alle ? e ? inges ? at euery 4756
wy? t ha? yknowe. ? ei wenen ? at ? o ? inges ben y-knowe
al oonly by ? e streng? e {and} by ? e nature of ? e ? inges
? at ben ywyst or yknowe. {and} it is al ? e contrarie. for
alle ? at eu{er}e is yknowe.
[Sidenote: Things are not known from their inherent properties,
but by the faculties of the observer. ]
it is ra? er comp{re}hendid {and} 4760
yknowe{n} nat after his strenge? {and} hys nature. but after
? e faculte ? at is to seyn ? e power {and} [the] nature of
hem ? at knowen.
[Sidenote: The roundness of a body affects the sight in one way,
and the touch in another. ]
{and} for ? at ? is shal mowe shewen by
a short ensample ? e same roundenes of a body . O. o? er 4764
weyes ? e sy? t of ? e eye knowe? it. {and} o? er weyes ? e
touchi{n}g.
[Sidenote: The eye, from afar, darts its rays upon the object, and
by beholding it comprehends its form. ]
? e lokynge by castynge of his bemes waite?
{and} see? fro afer alle ? e body to-gider wi? oute mouynge
of it self.
[Sidenote: But the object is not distinguished by the touch unless
the hand comes in contact with it and feels it all round. ]
but ? e touchinge cliui? {and} conioigne? to ? e 4768
rounde body (orbi) {and} moue? abouten ? e environynge.
{and} comp{re}hendi? by p{ar}ties ? e roundenesse.
[Linenotes:
4746 _seme_--semyn
_discorde_--discorden
4749 _? at_--yif
4753-5 [_and----self_]--from C.
4757 _ha? _--MS. ha? e
4760 _alle_--al
4763 _mowe_--mowen
4764 _roundenes_--Rowndnesse
4765 _sy? t_--sihte
4767 _alle_--al
4769 _abouten_--abowte
4770 _roundenesse_--Rowndnesse]
[Headnote:
SENSE, REASON, AND INTELLIGENCE. ]
[Sidenote: Man himself is surveyed in divers ways--by the senses,
by the imagination, by reason, and by the intelligence (of the
Deity). ]
? and ? e man hym self o? er weies wyt byholdi? hym. {and}
o? {er}weyes ymaginac{i}ou{n} {and} o? er weyes resou{n}. {and} 4772
o? er weyes intelligence.
[Sidenote: The senses take note of his material figure--the
imagination considers the form alone, exclusive of the matter. ]
? For ? e wit co{m}p{re}he{n}di?
fro wi? outen fur? e ? e figure of ? e body of ? e man. ? at
is establissed in ? e matere subiect. But ? e ymaginac{i}ou{n}
[comp{re}hendith only the figur{e} w{i}t{h} owte the mater{e} / 4776
[Sidenote: Reason transcends the imaginations, and examining
existences in general discovers the particular species, but the
eye of Intelligence soars still higher; for, going beyond the
bounds of what is general, it surveys the _simple forms_
themselves, by its own pure and subtle thought:]
Resou{n} surmou{n}teth ymaginaciou{n}]
{and} co{m}p{re}hende? [[pg 165]]
by an vniuersel lokynge ? e co{mmun}e spece (sp{eci}em)
? at is in ? e singuler peces. ? But ? e eye of intelligence
is hey? er for it so{ur}mou{n}te? ? e envirounynge of ? e 4780
vniu{er}site {and} looke? ouer ? at by pure subtilite of ? ou? t.
[Sidenote: in which this is chiefly to be considered, that the
higher power of perception embraces the lower; but the inferior
cannot attain to the energy of the superior:]
? ilk same symple forme of man ? at is p{er}durably in ? e
deuyne ? ou? t. in whiche ? is au? t[e] gretely to ben considered
? at ? e heyest streng? e to co{m}prehenden ? inges 4784
enbrace? {and} conteyne? ? e lower[e] streng? e [but the
lower{e} strengthe ne arysith nat in no maner{e} to heyer{e}
strengthe].
[Sidenote: for the senses cannot go beyond the perception of
matter; the imagination cannot comprehend existences in general,
nor can the reason conceive the simple form. ]
for wit ne may no ? inge co{m}p{re}hende oute of
matere. ne ? e ymagynac{i}ou{n} ne loke? nat ? e vniuerseles 4788
speces. ne resou{n} ne take? nat ? e symple forme. so as
i{n}telligence take? it.
[Sidenote: But the Intelligence looking down (as from above) and
having conceived the form, discerns all things that are below it,
and comprehends what does not fall within the reach of the other
faculties of the mind. ]
but ? e intelligence ? at loke? al
abouen whan it ha? co{m}p{re}hendid ? e forme it knowe?
{and} deme? alle ? e ? inges ? at be{n} vndir ? at forme. but 4792
she knowe? he{m} vndir ? ilke manere in ? e whiche it
comp{re}hendi? ? ilke same symple forme ? at ne may
neuer be knowen to non of ? at o? er. ? at is to seyn to
non of ? o ? re forseide streng? es of ? e soule.
[Sidenote: Without the aid of those faculties Intelligence
comprehends things _formally_ (_i. e. _ by beholding their simple
forms) by one effort of mind. ]
for it 4796
knowe? ? e vniuersite of resou{n} {and} ? e figure of
? e ymaginac{i}ou{n}.
{and} ? e sensible mat{er}ial conseiued. {and} ? ou
wenest ? {a}t it be diuerse fro ? e hoolnesse of science. ? at
any man sholde deme a ? ing to ben o? {er}weyes ? an it is 4800
it self {and} ? e cause of ? is erro{ur} {et}c'. {vt sup}ra. by wit.
[Sidenote: Reason, without the aid of Imagination and Sense, in
considering things in general, comprehends all imaginable and
sensible things. ]
ne it ne vse? nat nor of resou{n} ne of ymaginac{i}ou{n} ne
of wit wi? oute for? e but it byholde? alle ? inges so as I
shal seye. by a strok of ? ou? t formely wi? oute disco{ur}s 4804
or collac{i}ou{n} ? Certys resou{n} whan it loke? any ? ing
vniu{er}sel it ne vse? nat of ymaginac{i}ou{n} nor of wit {and}
algates ? it [it] co{m}prendi? ? e ? inges ymaginable {and}
sensible.
[Sidenote: For instance, reason defines her general conceptions
thus:--]
[Sidenote: [* fol. 37 _b_. ]]
for resou{n} is she ? at *diffinisse? ? e vniuersel 4808
of hir conseite ry? t ? us. [[pg 166]]
[Sidenote: Man is a rational two-footed animal, which, though it
be a general idea, yet every one knows that man thus defined is
perceived both by the imagination and the senses, notwithstanding
that in this instance reason does not make use of imagination or
the senses, but of her own rational conception. ]
? Man is a resonable t[w]o-footid
beest. and how so ? at ? is knowynge [is] vniuersel.
? it nys ? er no wy? t ? at ne woot wel. ? at a ma{n} is [a thing]
ymaginable {and} sensible ? and ? is same co{n}sidere? wel 4812
resou{n}. but ? at nis nat by ymaginac{i}ou{n}. nor by witte.
but it loki? it by [a] resonable concepc{i}ou{n}.
[Sidenote: The imagination also, although it derives its power of
seeing and forming figures from the senses, yet in the absence and
without the use of the senses it considers and comprehends all
sensible things by its own imaginative power. ]
? Also ymaginac{i}ou{n}
al be it so. ? at it take? of wit ? e bygyny{n}g{us}
to seen {and} to formen ?
seyn.
[Sidenote: We see many things when they are done before our eyes;
such as a charioteer driving his chariot, and other things of like
nature. ]
but we seen many ? inges whan ? ei ben don byforn
oure eyen ry? t as men seen ? e karter worken in ? e 4720
to{ur}nynge {and} in attempryng or in adressy{n}g of hys
kartes or chariottes. ? and by ? is manere as who sei?
mayst ? ou vnd{er}sto{n}de of alle manere o? ir werkeme{n}.
[Sidenote: Now, is there any necessity which compels these things
to be done? ]
? Is ? ere ? anne any necessite as who sei? in oure lokynge 4724
[? {a}t] constreine? or compelli? any of ? ilke ? inges
to ben don so.
[Sidenote: _B. _ No. For if all things were moved by
compulsion--the efforts of art would be vain and fruitless. ]
b. nay q{uo}d I ? For in ydel {and} in
veyne were alle ? e effect of crafte yif ? at alle ? inges
weren moeued by constreynynge. ? at is to seyn by constreynynge 4728
of oure eyen or of oure sy? t.
[Sidenote: _P. _ The things, then, which are done are under no
necessity that they should be done; then first before they were
done, they were under no necessity of coming to pass; wherefore
some things happen, the event of which is unconstrained by
necessity. ]
_P. _ ? ise ? i{n}g{us}
? an q{uo}d she ? at whan men don hem ne han non
necessite ? at men don hem. eke ? o same ? inges first or
? ei be don. ? ei ben to comen wi? out necessite.
[Sidenote: [* fol. 37. ]]
for whi 4732
? er ben so{m}me ? inges to bytide of whiche ? e endys
{and} ? e bitidynges of hem ben absolut *{and} quit of alle
necessite.
[Sidenote: These things therefore, although foreknown, have free
events: for as the knowledge of present things imposes no
necessity upon things which are now done, so neither does the
foreknowledge of futurities necessitate the things which are to
come. ]
for certys I ne trowe nat ? at any man wolde seyn
? is. ? at ? o ? inges ? at men don now ? {a}t ? ei ne weren 4736
to bitiden. first or ? ei were ydon ? and ? ilk same
? inges al ? ou? ? {a}t men hadde{n} ywyst hem by-forn.
? itte ? ei han fre bitidynges. for ry? t as science of
? inges p{re}sent ne brynge? in no necessite to ? inges 4740
[? {a}t men doon // Ryht so the p{re}science of thinges to
comen ne bryngeth in no necessite to thinges] to bytiden
[Sidenote: But you may doubt whether there can be any certain
prescience of things, of which the event is not necessitated: for
here there seems to be an evident contradiction. ]
but ? ou mayst seyn ? at of ? ilke same it is ydouted. as
whe? er ? at of ? ilke ? inges ? at ne han non endes {and} 4744
bytidynges necessaryes yif ? er-of may ben any p{re}science
[Linenotes:
4708 _nowe_--now
4709 _susteni? _--ysustenyd
_stedfast_--stydefast
_ladd_--MS. ladde, C. lad
4714 _whiche_--which
4715 [_? at_]--from C.
_sholde_--sholden
4716 _demen_--MS. denyen
[_? at_]--from C.
4717 _necessite_--MS. necessites
4721 _hys_--hise
4725 [_? at_]--from C.
4727 _veyne_--veyn
_alle_--al
_crafte_--craft
4729 _? ise_--MS. ? ise ? ise, C. the
4732 _wi? out_--w{i}t{h}-owte
4733 _bytide_--bytyden
_whiche_--which
4737 _were_--weeren
_ydon_--MS. ydone, C. I-doon
_? ilk_--thilke
4741-2 [_? at----thinges_]--from C.
4744 _endes_--issues]
[[pg 164]]
[Headnote:
THE NATURE OF TRUE KNOWLEDGE. ]
[Sidenote: If things are foreknown, you may contend they must
necessarily happen; and if their event is not necessary, they
cannot be foreseen, because true knowledge can comprehend nothing
but what is absolutely certain. ]
? For certys ? ei seme to discorde. for ? ou
wenest ? at yif ? at ? inges ben yseyn byforn ? at necessite
folwe? hem. and yif ({et} putas) necessite faile? hem ? ei ne 4748
my? ten nat ben wist byforn. {and} ? at no ? inge ne may
ben comp{re}hendid by science but certeyne.
[Sidenote: And if things uncertain in their events are foreseen as
certain, this knowledge is nothing more than a false opinion. ]
{and} yif ? o
? inges ? at ne han no certeyne bytidynges ben ypurueied
as certeyn.
[Sidenote: For it is very remote from true knowledge to judge of
things otherwise than they really are. ]
it sholde ben dirkenesse of oppiniou{n} nat 4752
so? efastnesse of science [{and} ? {o}u weenyst ? {a}t it be diu{er}se
fro the hoolnesse of science / ? {a}t any man sholde deme
a thing to ben oother weys thanne it is it self].
[Sidenote: The cause of this error is that men imagine that their
knowledge is wholly derived from the nature of the things known,
whereas it is quite the reverse. ]
and ? e
cause of ? is errour is. ? at of alle ? e ? inges ? at euery 4756
wy? t ha? yknowe. ? ei wenen ? at ? o ? inges ben y-knowe
al oonly by ? e streng? e {and} by ? e nature of ? e ? inges
? at ben ywyst or yknowe. {and} it is al ? e contrarie. for
alle ? at eu{er}e is yknowe.
[Sidenote: Things are not known from their inherent properties,
but by the faculties of the observer. ]
it is ra? er comp{re}hendid {and} 4760
yknowe{n} nat after his strenge? {and} hys nature. but after
? e faculte ? at is to seyn ? e power {and} [the] nature of
hem ? at knowen.
[Sidenote: The roundness of a body affects the sight in one way,
and the touch in another. ]
{and} for ? at ? is shal mowe shewen by
a short ensample ? e same roundenes of a body . O. o? er 4764
weyes ? e sy? t of ? e eye knowe? it. {and} o? er weyes ? e
touchi{n}g.
[Sidenote: The eye, from afar, darts its rays upon the object, and
by beholding it comprehends its form. ]
? e lokynge by castynge of his bemes waite?
{and} see? fro afer alle ? e body to-gider wi? oute mouynge
of it self.
[Sidenote: But the object is not distinguished by the touch unless
the hand comes in contact with it and feels it all round. ]
but ? e touchinge cliui? {and} conioigne? to ? e 4768
rounde body (orbi) {and} moue? abouten ? e environynge.
{and} comp{re}hendi? by p{ar}ties ? e roundenesse.
[Linenotes:
4746 _seme_--semyn
_discorde_--discorden
4749 _? at_--yif
4753-5 [_and----self_]--from C.
4757 _ha? _--MS. ha? e
4760 _alle_--al
4763 _mowe_--mowen
4764 _roundenes_--Rowndnesse
4765 _sy? t_--sihte
4767 _alle_--al
4769 _abouten_--abowte
4770 _roundenesse_--Rowndnesse]
[Headnote:
SENSE, REASON, AND INTELLIGENCE. ]
[Sidenote: Man himself is surveyed in divers ways--by the senses,
by the imagination, by reason, and by the intelligence (of the
Deity). ]
? and ? e man hym self o? er weies wyt byholdi? hym. {and}
o? {er}weyes ymaginac{i}ou{n} {and} o? er weyes resou{n}. {and} 4772
o? er weyes intelligence.
[Sidenote: The senses take note of his material figure--the
imagination considers the form alone, exclusive of the matter. ]
? For ? e wit co{m}p{re}he{n}di?
fro wi? outen fur? e ? e figure of ? e body of ? e man. ? at
is establissed in ? e matere subiect. But ? e ymaginac{i}ou{n}
[comp{re}hendith only the figur{e} w{i}t{h} owte the mater{e} / 4776
[Sidenote: Reason transcends the imaginations, and examining
existences in general discovers the particular species, but the
eye of Intelligence soars still higher; for, going beyond the
bounds of what is general, it surveys the _simple forms_
themselves, by its own pure and subtle thought:]
Resou{n} surmou{n}teth ymaginaciou{n}]
{and} co{m}p{re}hende? [[pg 165]]
by an vniuersel lokynge ? e co{mmun}e spece (sp{eci}em)
? at is in ? e singuler peces. ? But ? e eye of intelligence
is hey? er for it so{ur}mou{n}te? ? e envirounynge of ? e 4780
vniu{er}site {and} looke? ouer ? at by pure subtilite of ? ou? t.
[Sidenote: in which this is chiefly to be considered, that the
higher power of perception embraces the lower; but the inferior
cannot attain to the energy of the superior:]
? ilk same symple forme of man ? at is p{er}durably in ? e
deuyne ? ou? t. in whiche ? is au? t[e] gretely to ben considered
? at ? e heyest streng? e to co{m}prehenden ? inges 4784
enbrace? {and} conteyne? ? e lower[e] streng? e [but the
lower{e} strengthe ne arysith nat in no maner{e} to heyer{e}
strengthe].
[Sidenote: for the senses cannot go beyond the perception of
matter; the imagination cannot comprehend existences in general,
nor can the reason conceive the simple form. ]
for wit ne may no ? inge co{m}p{re}hende oute of
matere. ne ? e ymagynac{i}ou{n} ne loke? nat ? e vniuerseles 4788
speces. ne resou{n} ne take? nat ? e symple forme. so as
i{n}telligence take? it.
[Sidenote: But the Intelligence looking down (as from above) and
having conceived the form, discerns all things that are below it,
and comprehends what does not fall within the reach of the other
faculties of the mind. ]
but ? e intelligence ? at loke? al
abouen whan it ha? co{m}p{re}hendid ? e forme it knowe?
{and} deme? alle ? e ? inges ? at be{n} vndir ? at forme. but 4792
she knowe? he{m} vndir ? ilke manere in ? e whiche it
comp{re}hendi? ? ilke same symple forme ? at ne may
neuer be knowen to non of ? at o? er. ? at is to seyn to
non of ? o ? re forseide streng? es of ? e soule.
[Sidenote: Without the aid of those faculties Intelligence
comprehends things _formally_ (_i. e. _ by beholding their simple
forms) by one effort of mind. ]
for it 4796
knowe? ? e vniuersite of resou{n} {and} ? e figure of
? e ymaginac{i}ou{n}.
{and} ? e sensible mat{er}ial conseiued. {and} ? ou
wenest ? {a}t it be diuerse fro ? e hoolnesse of science. ? at
any man sholde deme a ? ing to ben o? {er}weyes ? an it is 4800
it self {and} ? e cause of ? is erro{ur} {et}c'. {vt sup}ra. by wit.
[Sidenote: Reason, without the aid of Imagination and Sense, in
considering things in general, comprehends all imaginable and
sensible things. ]
ne it ne vse? nat nor of resou{n} ne of ymaginac{i}ou{n} ne
of wit wi? oute for? e but it byholde? alle ? inges so as I
shal seye. by a strok of ? ou? t formely wi? oute disco{ur}s 4804
or collac{i}ou{n} ? Certys resou{n} whan it loke? any ? ing
vniu{er}sel it ne vse? nat of ymaginac{i}ou{n} nor of wit {and}
algates ? it [it] co{m}prendi? ? e ? inges ymaginable {and}
sensible.
[Sidenote: For instance, reason defines her general conceptions
thus:--]
[Sidenote: [* fol. 37 _b_. ]]
for resou{n} is she ? at *diffinisse? ? e vniuersel 4808
of hir conseite ry? t ? us. [[pg 166]]
[Sidenote: Man is a rational two-footed animal, which, though it
be a general idea, yet every one knows that man thus defined is
perceived both by the imagination and the senses, notwithstanding
that in this instance reason does not make use of imagination or
the senses, but of her own rational conception. ]
? Man is a resonable t[w]o-footid
beest. and how so ? at ? is knowynge [is] vniuersel.
? it nys ? er no wy? t ? at ne woot wel. ? at a ma{n} is [a thing]
ymaginable {and} sensible ? and ? is same co{n}sidere? wel 4812
resou{n}. but ? at nis nat by ymaginac{i}ou{n}. nor by witte.
but it loki? it by [a] resonable concepc{i}ou{n}.
[Sidenote: The imagination also, although it derives its power of
seeing and forming figures from the senses, yet in the absence and
without the use of the senses it considers and comprehends all
sensible things by its own imaginative power. ]
? Also ymaginac{i}ou{n}
al be it so. ? at it take? of wit ? e bygyny{n}g{us}
to seen {and} to formen ?
