No More Learning

Below, some Ucalegon already is shouting in fright
For water and moving his stuff. From your attic room, smoke pours,
But you don't know it; for if the fire starts on the lower floors,
The last one to burn will be the man with nothing to keep
Him from the rain but the roof tiles, beneath which, in a heap,
The soft rock-doves lay eggs. The one
bed that Codrus owned
Was too small for a dwarf, his cupboard boasted six mugs, a lone
Pitcher, a Chiron reclining, made of
the same soft stone,
With an old chest of Greek books, whose lovely poems were chewed
By illiterate mice. Poor Codrus had nothing--isn't it true? -
But he still lost the whole nothing.
The straw on the camel's back
Is this: although he's stripped of all
and begging a snack,
No one will give him a paltry
handout, no one a bed,
Or even offer him shelter, a roof above his head.
But let the great house of Asturicus
catch and burn,
The matrons mourn, the nobles wear black, the courts adjourn.
Oh, then we bewail the city's disasters and hate its fires!
The palace is still in flames and
someone runs up and desires
You Take Your Life in Your Hands if You Live in Rome
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Asturicus: Just as the name "Codrus" was used to refer to a poor man, so the name "Asturicus" symbol- izes a man of wealth.
attic room: The Latin phrase used by Juvenal, tabulata tertia, literally means "third floor," which was apparently the top floor in the burning apartment building.
Chiron: One of the centaurs--hybrid, half-man, half-horse creatures--of Greek mythology. Chiron was always portrayed as a wise, cul- tured, and gentle being, and a tutor of some of the most famous figures in Greek and Roman legend, including Achilles, Hercules, and Aeneas. It would have been appro- priate if Codrus had indeed placed the statue of Chiron on top of his chest of Greek books.
Codrus: Here, probably a generic name referring to any impover- ished person.
Euphranor or Polyclitus. Both were famous Greek sculptor/artists, who lived in the fourth century BCE and the fifth century BCE, respectively.
games: A reference to chariot races in the Circus Maximus. The implica- tion seems to be that one of the advantages of living in Rome is that one can easily frequent the Circus Maximus, whereas residence in one of the outlying towns requires some inconvenient travel to get to the games. However, living in one of these towns, like Sora or Frusino, can have a major benefit, too: more affordable housing.
Persicus: Another rich man, whose wealth is due to his childlessness and also to the suspicion that he may have torched his own house in order to receive gifts from sym- pathetic friends, not to mention
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To give him marble or building funds, another is pleased
To offer shining nude statues, another a masterpiece
Of Euphranor or Polyclitus or figures of bronze from nooks
In ancient Asian temples. And others will give him books,
Bookshelves, a bust of Minerva, or silver in coin or plate.
This is how Persicus, most refined and most fortunate
Of the childless, restores his loss with more and richer things.
No wonder that he's suspected of arson--look what it brings!
If you can be torn from the games, you can buy a fine house and stay
In Sora, Frusino, or anywhere else for what you now pay
In Rome to rent a dark hole one year. You'll have a small lawn,
A garden, a shallow well from which water is easily drawn,
With no need of ropes, to wet your tender plants. Live in peace
With a hoe as companion there, grow a truck garden fit to feast
A Vegetarian convention. Remote though your farm may be,
It's something to be the lord of one green lizard--and free . . .
what rented flat
Allows you to sleep? Only rich men
in this city have that.
[Tr. Hubert Creekmore. The Satires of Juvenal. (Satire 3. ) Mentor Classic, 1963. Page numbers: 55, 56, 57, 58. ]
AFTERMATH
Juvenal apparently wrote his satires--16 in all--after his return from exile. After a period of unknown duration, during which he occupied himself with the hard work of writing the satires, he was able to acquire a country farm home and at least some financial sta- bility. The source of this largesse is a mystery; it may have been a generous literary patron, or perhaps even the emperor, the enlight- ened Hadrian (reigned 117-138 CE).
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? the presents from legacy hunters who hoped to be recompensed, and then some, by being named heirs in Persicus's will. The poet Martial (3. 52) relates the story of a certain Tongilianus, whose house burned to the ground, but who received monetary contributions from friends that totaled five times the value of the gutted house.
Praeneste: Praeneste was a small town nestled in the hills about 20 miles southeast of Rome. It was a desir- able place for retirees, offering the pleasures and comforts of a small town, combined with easy acces- sibility to Rome. The downside? Real estate there was very pricey, so only the richest Romans could afford to buy a home in Praeneste.
Tivoli: Tibur, in Latin. Tivoli, like Praeneste, was a fashionable com- munity for well-to-do Romans. Juvenal calls it "craggy"; the poet Horace, in one of his Odes, refers to it as "sloping. " Both are referen- ces to Tivoli's location on the side of a hill. Juvenal cites all four of these towns (Praeneste, Volsinii, Gabii, and Tivoli) as examples of safe and pleasant places to live. Compare them, he suggests, to the dangers of residing in Rome: houses that collapse; roof and ceiling beams supported by mere "toothpicks"; a janitor--the Latin word employed by Juvenal is vilicus, perhaps better translated as "apartment man- ager"--makes a few cosmetic repairs, and then assures the tenants that their rooms are sound and that they should all "rest in peace. "
The sloppy construction and maintenance methods that were rampant in these inner-city apart- ments contrast vividly to the care
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Life in Rome generally was undoubtedly better after the death of Domitian. That despotic ruler was followed by the so-called Five Good Emperors (Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus Pius, and Marcus Aurelius), who collectively reigned from 98 to 180 CE. The historian Edward Gibbon famously referred to this era with these glowing words: "If a man were called to fix the period in the history of the world during which the condition of the human race was most happy and prosperous, he would, without hesitation, name that which elapsed from the death of Domitian to the acces- sion of Commodus. "
ASK YOURSELF
1. Juvenal writes, somewhat enviously, about pleasant but pricey retirement communities like Praeneste. Would it be accurate to compare Praeneste to a place like Palm Springs, California, a well-known retirement destination for the rich and famous?
2. It was mentioned in "Keep in Mind as You Read" that Juvenal, as a satirist, often relied on exaggeration to help him make his points or convey his message. Do you notice any passages or descriptions in the document that seem like they might be exaggerated? Which one(s), and why?
3. What do you make of the passage where Juvenal chides an apartment dweller for being unwilling to move to inexpen- sive housing in one of the small country towns near Rome, because of the allure of attending chariot races in Rome? Might there be a desire on the part of a city resident to be "where the action is"? Is the same true today?
TOPICS TO CONSIDER
e The Romans enjoyed gardens and gardening in
the same way as many contemporary Americans.
Juvenal suggests that living in a small town, away
from Rome, would enable the occupant to have a
garden, but only a small one. (The word in Latin
for garden is hortus; Juvenal uses the diminutive,
hortulus, a "little garden," to describe the typical
small-town garden. ) Consider and research the
topic of Roman gardens. In addition to size, how was a standard garden (hortus) different from a little garden (hortulus)? Are there any similarities between Roman and American gardens?
e The Romans excelled in the area of civil engineering (the construction of public works such as roads, bridges, and aqueducts), but they never seemed to be able to solve the problem of congestion and noise in the streets of their big cities, especially Rome. Consider the topic of street construction and usage in ancient Rome. What specific measures did they take to try
You Take Your Life in Your Hands if You Live in Rome
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? that was taken in the building of upscale homes. In his treatise on architecture, Vitruvius recounted at some length the importance of properly fabricated walls, piers, col- umns, arches, and other weight- bearing components that contrib- uted to the structural integrity of the house.
Ucalegon: Ucalegon is the (probably fic- titious) name of one of the tenants on a lower floor. However, in the Aeneid, the epic poet Virgil also refers to a certain Ucalegon, a resident of the doomed city of Troy: "Even now, the spacious house of Deiphobus has fallen, as the fire- god towers above; even now his neighbor, [the house belonging to] Ucalegon, blazes. " [2. 310-312; tr. Fairclough. ] Perhaps Juvenal had in mind the Virgilian Ucalegon, another house-fire victim, when he wrote these lines.
Volsinii; Gabii: Both were towns in central Italy.
with nothing to keep him from the rain but the roof tiles: The impli- cation seems to be that apartment fires often start on the lower floors, in which case the tenant on the top floor will be "the last one to burn. " Roof tiles (tegulae) were con- structed of flat sheets of stone joined together by curved, raised connectors.
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? ? ? ? A SLUMLORD AND FINANCIAL PROFITEER EXTRAORDINAIRE
The first-century BCE politician Marcus Licinius Crassus amassed a fortune that would have been the envy of a Gates or a Trump . . . or even an Alex Rodriguez. One of his favored ways of maintaining and augmenting his bottom line was to buy up properties in lower-income neighborhoods in Rome and then rent them out at exor- bitant rates. He was especially aggressive in purchasing properties that had been destroyed by fire; according to the biographer Plutarch, destructive house and apartment fires were frequent in Rome because of the height and physical proximity of these buildings. Plutarch relates that Crassus bought about 500 slaves who were knowl- edgeable about building and architecture, and then when a conflagration was raging in some residential district in Rome, Crassus would appear on the scene and offer the distraught owner a bargain basement price for his property. The owner, figuring that something was better than nothing, usually agreed to the price. In this way, says Plutarch, Crassus acquired on the cheap a large number of burned-out houses and apartments, which his 500 slaves subsequently rebuilt, and from which Crassus profited greatly through the excessive rental fees he charged.
Oddly, Rome had no organized, government-sanctioned fire brigade until early in the first century CE, when the emperor Augustus placed throughout the city some 7,000 nocturnae vigiles--literally, "night watchmen"-- whose primary job was to guard against the outbreak of fires and to assist in extinguishing them when needed. These vigiles probably also had some law enforcement responsibilities, thus making them kind of a hybrid com- bination of police officers and firefighters.
The biographer Suetonius has an interesting, albeit rather cryptic, comment on firefighting, in his Life of Nero. [16. 1] He states that Nero ordered porticos to be constructed in front houses and apartments in Rome; these porticos had flat roofs, from which residential fires could be battled. However, Suetonius does not mention the methods that could be employed by rooftop brigades in containing fires. It was also during Nero's reign that the great fire of 64 CE swept through Rome, for six days and seven nights, according to Suetonius. Whether Nero himself set the conflagration, and whether he "fiddled while Rome burned," are both open to debate.
? ? to deal with the noise-pollution problem? How successful were they in doing so? Are there any parallels between ancient Roman cities and modern American cities in the way(s) in which they handled these kinds of problems?
Further Information
Green, Peter. Juvenal: The Sixteen Satires. Baltimore, 1967. Highet, Gilbert. Juvenal the Satirist: A Study. New York, 1954.
? ? ? ? SATIRE: A ROMAN INVENTION
The ancient Romans, rightly or wrongly, are often accused of "borrowing" large portions of their culture-- mythology, literature, art, and architecture, to name a few--from the Greeks. But one literary niche was totally Roman: satire. A famous line from the first-century CE orator Quintilian attests to Roman ownership of this genre: Satira quidem tota nostra est: "Satire, at least, is all ours. " [10. 1. 93] This line occurs within the context of a lengthy defense of Roman authors and their sometimes implied, sometimes stated, equivalence or even superiority to their Greek counterparts.
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Websites
Juvenal. http://www. nndb. com/people/055/000097761/
Sample Plan of a Roman house. http://vroma. org/~bmcmanus/house. html
Bibliography for Document
Creekmore, Hubert (tr. ). The Satires of Juvenal. New York, 1963.
Fairclough, H. Rushton (tr. ). Virgil: Eclogues; Georgics; Aeneid. Volume I. [LCL. ] Cambridge
and London, 1916.
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25. AH! AT LAST I CAN LIVE LIKE A HUMAN BEING!
INTRODUCTION
For an egregious contrast to the conditions under which denizens of the insulae passed their days in Rome, we need look no further than the spectacular Domus Aurea, or Golden House, built for the emperor Nero in the first century CE. The biographer Suetonius (ca. 70-140 BCE) provides the details of this monument to excess.
KEEP IN MIND AS YOU READ
1. Nero had an obsession with over-the-top behavior, if Suetonius is to be believed. Some examples: There must have been a constant turnover in his closet, because he wore none of his clothing more than once. When he went fishing, he used a gilded net that was equipped with purple and red drawstrings. When he went on a trip, he was accompanied by a thousand carriages (minimum!
), all drawn by mules with silver shoes, with drivers wearing expensive woolen clothing, and horsemen and messengers all attired with finely wrought jewelry. It is hardly surprising, then, that his Golden House would exceed all boundaries of propriety.
2. Suetonius is occasionally accused of something approximating "tabloid journalism": that is, an inordinate interest in reporting gossip, scandal, and indecorous behavior. This charge, however, seems a little unfair, since the purpose of a biographer is to present a picture of the complete person, including that person's eccentricities and improprieties.
3. Although the exact square footage of the Golden House is unknown, it must have been built on a vast scale, since it was large enough to encompass a one-mile long colonnade and sprawling enough to fill the entire space in between two of Rome's famous Seven Hills, the Esquiline and the Palatine. So ambitious were Nero's con- struction projects that the comedians of the time joked that the buildings would eventually stretch in a continuous line all the way from Rome to the town of Veii, 10 miles away. Suetonius writes that Nero ordered all prisoners, anywhere in the Empire, should be brought to Italy to provide the unskilled labor for the projects, and that even those guilty of capital crimes would live to see their sentences over- turned. Working for Nero, apparently, was sentence enough!
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4. The Golden House received its name not because it was literally a house made of gold (although Nero's housing proclivities would undoubtedly have tended in that direction! ), but most likely because--as Suetonius explains--much of its wall and ceiling space was overlaid with gold.
Document: Suetonius's Account of Nero's Golden House
There was nothing, however, in which he [Nero] was more ruinously prodigal than in building. He made a palace extending all the way from the Palatine to the Esquiline, which at first he called the House of Passage, but when it was burned shortly after its completion and rebuilt, the Golden House. Its size and splendor will be sufficiently indi- cated by the following details. Its vestibule was large enough to contain a colossal statue of the emperor a hundred and twenty feet high; and it was so exten- sive that it had a triple colonnade a mile long. There was a pond, too, like a sea, surrounded with buildings to represent cities, besides tracts of coun- try, varied by tilled fields, vineyards, pastures and woods, with great numbers of wild and domestic animals. In the rest of the house all parts were overlaid with gold and adorned with gems and mother-of-pearl. There were dining rooms with fretted ceilings of ivory, whose panels could turn and shower down flowers and were fitted with pipes for sprinkling the guests with perfumes. The main banquet hall was circular and constantly revolved day and night, like the heavens. He had baths supplied with sea water and sulphur water. When the edifice was finished in this style and he dedicated it, he deigned to say nothing more in the way of approval than that he was at last beginning to be housed like a human being . . .
He was led to such mad extravagance, in addi- tion to his confidence in the resources of the empire, by the hope of a vast hidden treasure, sud- denly inspired by the assurance of a Roman knight, who declared positively that the enormous wealth which queen Dido had taken with her of old in her flight from Tyre was hidden away in huge caves in Africa and could be recovered with but trifling labor. [Tr. John C. Rolfe. Suetonius. Nero (31). Volume II. LCL, 1914. Page numbers: 135, 137, 139. ]
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? colossal statue of the emperor: Nero, never one to be too modest about his self-image as a larger-than-life authority figure, believed himself worthy of both adulation and com- memoration in the form of a colossal statue, 120 feet tall, as Suetonius records. The statue, designed by the first-century CE Greek architect Zenodorus, was made of bronze, with gold and silver overlays. Some historians doubt that it actually ever stood in the Golden House. Sue- tonius states only that the vestibule was large enough to accommodate a statue of that size, but it seems probable, given the immensity of Nero's ego, that an equally immense colossus did reside in his home. The statue is no longer in existence.
After Nero's death, his Golden House was demolished, and con- struction began on the Flavian Amphitheater, which was built on the site formerly occupied by the house. It is widely believed that this amphitheater, better known today as the Coliseum, derived its popular name from its proximity to the original location of Nero's colossus.
enormous wealth. . . queen Dido: Dido was a legendary queen of Tyre (a city of Phoenicia, on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea). She had a rather unusual fam- ily background. She was married to her uncle, Sychaeus, reportedly a
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Ah! At Last I Can Live Like a Human Being!
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? man of great wealth. Dido's brother, Pygmalion, murdered Sychaeus in order to get his hands on Sychaeus's money. In the confu- sion following the murder, Dido and a group of her friends and sup- porters fled from Tyre, eventually landing in North Africa, where she became the founder and ruler of the famous city-state Carthage. In her flight, Dido supposedly took her uncle's considerable fortune with her; the rumor persisted-- more than a millennium after the event--that this treasure trove was hidden somewhere in the area and "could be recovered with but trifling labor. " Nero, at least, hoped so!
Dido is a principal character in the first four books of Virgil's Aeneid. When Aeneas and his friends are shipwrecked on the coast of North Africa, Dido welcomes them hospitably and even prepares a banquet in their honor. After the feast, she prevails upon Aeneas to tell her the story of the Trojan War and its aftermath. As the days go by, Dido becomes increasingly enamored of Aeneas, to the point where a marriage seems both logical and inevitable. However, Aeneas realizes that his destiny lies else- where, and so he and the Trojans sail away from her kingdom. From a watchtower, she sees the departing Trojans, and in her despair and anger prays to the gods that they will at some time bring forth an avenger to destroy the progeny of Aeneas. She then commits suicide.
Later generations of Romans will hark back to this tragic story and interpret it as a harbinger of the bitter Punic Wars (Rome versus Carthage) of the third and second centuries BCE, even suggesting that
? ? ? AFTERMATH
Nero's short and out-of-control life came to an ignominious end at age 31, in 68 CE, when he was toppled in a military coup engineered by one of his generals, Servius Sulpicius Galba. Apparently, Nero never saw it coming; he had been assured by a prophecy from the renowned Delphic Oracle that he need only fear the seventy-third year. Since he was a young man when he received that news, he felt certain that many long and "ruinously prodigal" years lay before him. It never occurred to him that the "seventy-third year" might apply to something or someone else. Galba's age when he deposed Nero? Seventy-three!
When the coup was underway, and Nero realized that his situa- tion was hopeless, he began making preparations for his own demise, all the while, according to Suetonius, saying over and over: Qualis artifex pereo! : "What an artist is dying! " This was perhaps a reference to his expensive appreciation for works of art, or perhaps to his own efforts at composing music and presenting recitals.
Shortly after his death, his Golden House was almost com- pletely demolished by the emperor Vespasian (Galba's eventual suc- cessor, after the very short reigns of Otho and Vitellius), although vestiges of the house still remain. The Flavian Amphitheater was built on the spot where the house once stood. Some say that this amphitheater derived its more famous name--the Coliseum-- because of its location near the site of the former colossus of Nero. Guilt by association!
ASK YOURSELF
1. Suetonius's account of the early years of Nero's reign indi- cates that the emperor (and he became emperor at age 17) was sensible and just. He showed great respect to his elders, he was generous to those in need, he was approachable and friendly, and he had a knack for remembering the names of people he met and then greeting them by name when he saw them. He was a supporter of the arts, patronized chariot races and gladiatorial shows, and established con- tests in music, oratory, and poetry. Why, then, do you sup- pose that the later years of his reign were marked by cruelty, greed, licentiousness, and extravagance, as exempli- fied by the Golden House?
2. As mentioned in the "Keep in Mind as You Read" section, Suetonius is sometimes accused of a sort of tabloid journal- ism in his biographies: reporting the salacious gossip about an individual while ignoring or downplaying the less scan- dalous but more serious aspects of that individual's life. Do you think the description of the Golden House falls
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into the category of "salacious gossip"? Could this descrip- tion have been omitted entirely from the biography and still leave us with a more or less complete picture of the sort of life that Nero lived?
TOPICS TO CONSIDER
e Consider the topography of ancient Rome. Find out approximately how far it was between the Palatine and Esquiline Hills. Would it have been practical, or even possible, to have built a house that occupied that much space? Was the house constructed entirely in the valley formed by those two hills, or were parts of the house built into or on the hills?
e Consider the information in the "Aftermath" sec- tion. Can you think of other examples in both ancient and recent history of iconoclasm: the intentional destruction of statues, paintings, or other graphic representations of previous rulers by successor regimes?
e ConsidertheimmensescaleonwhichtheGolden House was built. Can you think of any contempo- rary examples of rulers or heads of state who dwell in comparably plush and extravagant living quarters?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? the intractable Carthaginian general Hannibal was the "avenger" for whom Dido prayed.
Palatine/Esquiline: Two of Rome's famous Seven Hills (although the city actually encompassed more than a dozen named hills and ridges. The other five: the Aven- tine, the Caelian, the Capitoline, the Quirinal, and the Viminal. The Palatine Hill (Mons Palatinus, in Latin) was home to a number of palatial residences; indeed, our word "palace" derives from Palatinus.
Roman knight: The equestrian class, sometimes called "knights," com- prised Rome's thriving upper middle class. Suetonius does not name the particular knight who provided Nero with this assurance.
triple colonnade: The vestibule's roof was supported by three rows of columns. It defies speculation or imagination to calculate how many individual columns would be required for a mile-long roof.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? BUILD 'EM BIG: COLOSSAL STATUES IN THE ANCIENT GREEK AND ROMAN WORLD
Nero's remarkable colossal statue was not a one-of-a-kind creation; there were precedents. Perhaps the most famous of these was the Colossus of Rhodes, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. Built ca. the early third century BCE in honor of the god Apollo, it soared skyward some 100 feet and overlooked the harbor at Rhodes. According to the naturalist and historian Pliny the Elder, the circumference of its thumbs was greater than the span of an average man's hand. Legend has it that it straddled the harbor so that ships entering and leaving would sail directly beneath it; however, this is a largely discredited account. The Colossus did not long survive; it was destroyed by an earthquake about 75 years after it was erected.
The fifth-century BCE Athenian sculptor/architect Pheidias created some of the ancient world's most beautiful and noteworthy colossal statues. His statue of Zeus at Olympia--like the Colossus of Rhodes, ranked as one of the Seven Wonders--was reputedly 40 feet tall, and made of gold and ivory. Pheidias's statue of Athena in the Parthenon in Athens was also about 40 feet tall, and also crafted of gold and ivory; the gold alone was supposedly worth some 44 talents, the equivalent of perhaps $15 million. Pheidias sculpted another noted statue of Athena-- the Athena Promachos--which was situated on the Acropolis, the high hill overlooking Athens. This statue, includ- ing the base, was about 70 feet tall; according to the second-century CE travel writer Pausanias, the sunlight's reflec- tions off the statue's helmet crest and the point of the spear in its hand could both be seen by sailors on ships rounding Cape Sounion, about 40 miles from Athens.
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Further Information
Ball, Larry F. The Domus Aurea and the Roman Architectural Revolution. Cambridge, 2003. Grant, Michael. Nero. New York, 1989.
Website
Domus Aurea. http://en. wikipedia. org/wiki/Domus_Aurea
Bibliography for Document
Rolfe, John C. (tr. ). Suetonius. Volume II. [LCL. ] Cambridge and London, 1914.
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INTELLECTUAL LIFE
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26. AN INTELLECTUAL ON TRIAL
INTRODUCTION
When we ponder the array of intellectuals who added color and controversy to ancient Athenian life, we would be hard pressed to come up with a more famous name than Socrates (469-399 BCE). For three decades, he wandered the streets of Athens, teaching, ask- ing questions, forcing his audiences to think. His annoying (to the authorities! ) habit of investigating and sometimes casting doubts upon established modes of governance, religion, and education eventually caused him to be put on trial and ultimately condemned to death. The transcript of that trial, written by his disciple Plato, remains one of the most famous documents that has come down to us from antiquity.
KEEP IN MIND AS YOU READ
1. The Greek title of Plato's recounting of Socrates's trial, Apologia, is often translated as The Apology. However, we must be careful to remember that the word apologia neither connotes nor denotes an expression of regret or sorrow. Rather, it means "defense," and that definition precisely applies to the words Socrates spoke at his trial.
2. Modern juries are traditionally composed of "12 good men (and women) and true," but ancient juries--both Greek and Roman--regularly featured much higher num- bers. The jury that convicted Socrates, for example, had 501 members; many jury- men were elderly citizens who depended on the stipends they received for jury service as part of their retirement income. An odd number of jurors was selected to preclude tie votes. However, if some extenuating circumstance caused the absence of one or more jurors, thus creating an even number, a tie vote went to the defendant, and the case would be dismissed.
3. Stating the case against Socrates were three accusers, Meletus, Anytus, and Lycon. Apparently, they were very good at what they did; Socrates himself admitted that he was "almost carried away by them; their arguments were so convincing. "
? ?